Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[ChrisIII]

I think the main theory is that the Time Lords somehow took the Timeless child(ren?) and somehow stole from them the ability of regeneration and/or time travel, then covered it up. It's also theorized that these may be humans who escaped from the Cybermen as well, implying that the Time Lords were originally human. Like the Toclafane revelation, it would break the Doctor's hearts perhaps. (Although he did get over that and I guess presumed the Toclafane were only a possible future, but this could be more of a problem). Also would kind of solve the half-human thing, although in an unusual way.


But anyway, just a theory/speculation. I and others could be way off base.


Which would be an interesting twist considering in quite a few stories we've seen time lord technology stolen or copied as well, usually with disastrous results (The War Games,Underworld, Mawdryn Undead, The Two Doctors, The Lazarus Experiment).

[Indian Ink]

Are those cliffs Brendan falls over the same ones used in Broadchurch? Never saw the show but of course there were many promos during Doctor Who back when it came out.

Had another look, it does look very similar and both programs were shot in wales.

[Silvermoth]

I have to say this season has been so much better than the last one. I can’t wait to find out what happens next!

[Deathstroke]

I picked up that Doctor Who novel At Childhood's End by Sophie Aldred yesterday. I'm looking forward to reading it. Oddly enough, it will be the first Doctor Who prose novel I've ever read.

[The Whovian]

Heard from a reliable source about tonight's episode. It is going to tick off a lot of long time fans. Don't read if you don't want to be spoiled:

spoilers:

The Doctor isn't a Time Lord from Gallifrey. William Hartnell's Doctor didn't choose the name, the Tardis was a police box before he ran from Gallifrey, and Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor. Ruth isn't the one who takes the Timeless Child back to Gallifrey, she IS the Timeless Child. A character called Tectian takes the Timeless Child to Gallifrey. The thing that allows the Timeless Child to regenerate endlessly is extracted and put into the Time Lords. If this is true (and this person has been right about everything that happened this season, including specific actors playing certain roles), Chibnall is spitting in the face of long time Doctor Who fans. He would be completely rewriting the history of the Doctor, the Time Lords and Gallifrey. He will be hated.

end of spoilers

[thwhtGuardian]

Heard from a reliable source about tonight's episode. It is going to tick off a lot of long time fans. Don't read if you don't want to be spoiled:

spoilers:

The Doctor isn't a Time Lord from Gallifrey. William Hartnell's Doctor didn't choose the name, the Tardis was a police box before he ran from Gallifrey, and Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor. Ruth isn't the one who takes the Timeless Child back to Gallifrey, she IS the Timeless Child. A character called Tectian takes the Timeless Child to Gallifrey. The thing that allows the Timeless Child to regenerate endlessly is extracted and put into the Time Lords. If this is true (and this person has been right about everything that happened this season, including specific actors playing certain roles), Chibnall is spitting in the face of long time Doctor Who fans. He would be completely rewriting the history of the Doctor, the Time Lords and Gallifrey. He will be hated.

end of spoilers

I really hope that's all wrong.

[ZeroBG82]

Heard from a reliable source about tonight's episode. It is going to tick off a lot of long time fans. Don't read if you don't want to be spoiled:

spoilers:

The Doctor isn't a Time Lord from Gallifrey. William Hartnell's Doctor didn't choose the name, the Tardis was a police box before he ran from Gallifrey, and Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor. Ruth isn't the one who takes the Timeless Child back to Gallifrey, she IS the Timeless Child. A character called Tectian takes the Timeless Child to Gallifrey. The thing that allows the Timeless Child to regenerate endlessly is extracted and put into the Time Lords. If this is true (and this person has been right about everything that happened this season, including specific actors playing certain roles), Chibnall is spitting in the face of long time Doctor Who fans. He would be completely rewriting the history of the Doctor, the Time Lords and Gallifrey. He will be hated.

end of spoilers

It's all true (according to multiple people who saw the British broadcast). But also presented by the most unreliable source imaginable and in a way/setting that is explicitly compromised.

No need to get too hung up on it yet. Until we see how much of it they wade into next series, it's all easily overwritten or ignored.

[Indian Ink]

Just seen it, missed first three minutes. I really need to see it again to pass full judgement. However I'm not spoiling much by saying the Brendan story was pretty much completely irrelevant. Some of the large questions are answered about him, but others make no sense at all and are apparently things placed to have emotional effect at the very moment of watching, but are complete nonsense in reflection. Yet again I get the feeling (Brendan part) of a ghost, an unpublished historical story and has been montaged in with a hammer like a square peg into a round hole.

Most of the spoilers are true.

The companions escape method from the Cyber freighter is risible and shouldn't have been possible.

Will be back later.

[ChrisIII]

I'm thinking that the Cartmel ideas also kind of fit into this whole thing, as well.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartmel_Masterplan

[Indian Ink]

Thoughts before rewatching. mild spoilers; if somewhat veiled.



"Tek-tay-ohne" (or however it's spelled) first space traveller in her planet's history "took risks to explore the worlds and galaxies beyond her home." Really first traveller? And already going to other galaxies!!? I think the writer doesn't know the difference between galaxy and solar system.

Tek-tay-ohne is spoken of, and shown as being caring, but then doesn't seem to mind killing a child many times.

Death particle weapon can be used once to destroy all organic life (one is lead to believe in the universe or perhaps at the very least galaxy) but later is claimed to only be able to destroy one planet. So which is it? Planet or Universe? That's a big difference.

[Deathstroke]

Ugh...my head hurts.

[Xalfrea]

I'm primarily through this show by New Who but was familiar with Classic Who as well, including all the stuff from Brain of Morbius, Cartmell's Masterplan, and Lungbarrow. So by the end of this, letting the revelation sit, and looking at the fallout of the episode. This has pretty much been me:

[Cyke]

Thoughts before rewatching. mild spoilers; if somewhat veiled.



"Tek-tay-ohne" (or however it's spelled) first space traveller in her planet's history "took risks to explore the worlds and galaxies beyond her home." Really first traveller? And already going to other galaxies!!? I think the writer doesn't know the difference between galaxy and solar system.

I dunno, I had problems with this episode but this wasn't one of them because 1. we don't know the extent of Gallifreyan technology at that point and 2. we don't know the length of time this takes or even the lifespan of the indigenous race. Technology doesn't always run linear on our own planet (consider the Aztecs and Imperial China vs. the uniformity of Europe -- all sides had their strengths and weaknesses in comparison), nevermind the oldest civilization in the universe.

Of note, not that DW should be compared to Star Trek, but I just watched a couple separate ST episodes where the alien race is an inverse -- their ship technology is poor, but their teleport technology is literally light years ahead of Starfleet transporters. For all we know, Gallifrey might have "saved up" their tech tree until they knew they were fairly confident in FTL travel.

Tek-tay-ohne is spoken of, and shown as being caring, but then doesn't seem to mind killing a child many times.

Yeah, the episode is quite blatant and intentional that Tecteun is either a hypocrite or completely contradictory to Time Lord historical narrative, which paints her as a hero. The same can be said about Thomas Jefferson once Sally Hemmings comes into play. But several times as well this episode (along with countless others, both classic and revival) paint the Time Lords as untrustworthy for the sake of maintaining the status quo and holding on to their power like the pompous aristocrats they are. They've never been saints, especially in the way they've treated the Doctor, all the way back on screen to Troughton. The Doctor's had a love/hate relationship with their people.

Death particle weapon can be used once to destroy all organic life (one is lead to believe in the universe or perhaps at the very least galaxy) but later is claimed to only be able to destroy one planet. So which is it? Planet or Universe? That's a big difference.

I rewatched the episode and the first time it's mentioned, it's just organic life, period, nothing to add inference that it's the universe or galaxy, but I imagine that it's conflated because the Master's and Ashad's plans were ultimately universal in scope. Only once it was explained that the Death Particle was a planetary weapon was the scale actually clarified.

----

Moving on to my own review...


Funniest comment I've seen about this: "Chibnall's put in a lot of effort to make the Morbius Doctors canon" (eek)

Anyway...

The Good:
- The Master, once again, knocks it out of the park. He's so maniacally charismatic and continuing a fine tradition of excellently-cast Masters.

- Graham's sentiments to Yaz were pretty sweet, even if it seemed a bit contrived.

- The building-blocks construction of NuWho's Gallifrey was great to watch, and may be my favorite graphic this season.

- I really like that the stakes have been reversed from previous finales -- whereas the Earth or the universe or even time itself had to be saved, this time it's less of saving the universe and much more introspective about Gallifrey.

- I'm happy to see Jo Martin return as the Doctor

- "The Magic of Montage"

The Bad:
- I've defended this season but I may have had it with this episode, really. The last 1/4th of this season has been "wait and see," but it doesn't lead to anything satisfactorily; I don't know how much my curiosity's been piqued, and if the mystery only serves to continue sustaining itself and dragging the viewer along rather than leading towards an answer, the mystery gets boring quick.

- The way Ser Barristan pops in in the end feels completely unearned and out of left field. The Doctor's offered to sacrifice themself countless times, obviously usually robbed of that chance, but Ser Barristan literally popping out of stage left with no character build up or foreshadowing was such a cheap way of saving the Doctor.

- Also seen elsewhere: "At least RTD and Moffat sought to add to the lore for successors to play with, even if we didn't always agree with their choices. That's why we have the Judoon (RTD) and the remnants of the Master and the Cybermen from Moffat era. Chibnall is creating gaps in order to fill in, and so in a way it's a subtraction since he's creating more space but nothing to add into it."

- And now for the elephant in the room: my major attraction to the Doctor as a character is the fact that they weren't anything special at first, but rather that they were actually less than special and built themself up to this status of adventurer, that anyone can have a chance to be great with hope, empathy, curiosity, good faith, and a *lot* of cleverness, with those traits actually being preferably to status and power. Being 'The Chosen One' really robs that mystique and appeal of the character.

But I'd like to push that one bit further, with one minor tweak: I think the Timeless Child should have been the Master. It would give way more justification for the Master to blow up Gallifrey if he found out that the Time Lords wiped his memory to control him (something others have brought up, only for the Time War), but it would also mean taking revenge on Time Lords for being his progeny and rebelling against him, much like an inverse of how God wrought vengeance upon Lucifer. Likewise, it would also mean a special kind of enmity for the Doctor since they keep thwarting him using the very same DNA against him (this time, almost like Silver Surfer thwarting Galactus). It would thus further reinforce the classic DW trope since Pertwee vs. Delgado all the way to Capaldi vs. Gomez, that the Doctor and the Master really are two sides of the same coin and one simple difference is all it takes to turn savior into destroyer, or vice versa. But the big difference here, then, is that this deeply personal force that upends all our expectations and knowledge about the mighty Time Lords, and the history of the universe itself since the Time Lords are the oldest race, is that the Master is the Chosen One, but being the Chosen One isn't always the best way to go, that the origin of the Time Lords is the greatest mystery the Doctor has ever faced, and that their opponent isn't just deeply personal, but now almost omnisciently knowledgeable thanks to regaining a mind almost as old as the universe itself.

It has the makings of laying the groundwork for the greatest Doctor vs. Master match up ever, one that surpasses even the Time War itself, but by getting the fundamental roles wrong, it just comes across as more pointless mystery and yet the Doctor paradoxically losing their much of their mystique. It's a mess.

Then again, it could be that the Master, like the Doctor, lies, and hence why there's gaps in the Matrix's memory banks. That would be preferable, but that's after the fact; I feel like the damage has been done.

(On a self-congratulatory note, I predicted the Matrix would be involved wayyyy back in episode 1 of this season. It's just that I made the wrong guess about it.)

[Derek Metaltron]

Loved it! I don't think there was anything we weren't expecting in regards to revelations - it was obvious that the Doctor was gonna be the Timeless Child since Ruth - but I adored the Master's schemes in this story! And there's more to come next season, I am certain.

...also I get to fully imagine that James Bond and Mary Poppins are Time Lords now. They work for the Division. The Spy and the Nanny. I will be make it canon, darn it.

[Matt]

One thing I despise in writing is when a creative team changes and tears down what was previously built up, just so they they can set up their own vision.
Vendeitti did it over in Green Lantern (the Emotional entities and the various Corps were jettisoned ASAP) and it's just been done here in Doctor Who.
It's lazy and unimaginative.
And that left a huge dirty stain on what was trying to be achieved here, and just ruined whatever the actual goal may have been.

That and the selective cherry picking of evidence from the show's history to try to justify this new set up was pretty obvious and just seemed cheap.