Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Carabas]

Doctor Who is really, really, really, really not that kind of television show.

Books and audio stuff might be different, but the show does not care one whit about that kind of canon intricacies and archaic minutiae.

And Time War Daleks were supposed to be them at the height of their power, with their own Hand Of Omega level stuff.
Timelords and Daleks were using these kind of weapons and ripping the universe apart doing so. Both sides had gone completely insane. Okay, one side started there already, and the Timelords were always halfway there anyway.

It's the Timelords that started the war in the first place in Genesis Of The Daleks.

[BeastieRunner]

My impression is that the Timelords were using that level of weaponry in the Time War.

[Matt]

The Time Lords, as a civilisation, stagnated for countless millennia - and that is due to:
1) They were at the top of the proverbial food chain. With no challengers, they had no incentive to actually improve themselves. They sat back and simply watched the Universe.
2) Their incredibly long life spans meant that the same minds are in charge for a bloody long time, meaning those who might actually have new ideas or innovations never have a real shot at being in charge.
3) The times the Time Lords did try to be interventionists and improve the Universe, it backfired horribly ("Underworld", "Mawdryn Undead" for examples). This led directly to their strict non-interventionist philosophy. Of course, not intervening means less exposure to new ideas and formation of new ideas of your own.

Mainly, the Time Lords literally forgot about most of their own achievements and technologies. Heck, in "The Deadly Assassin" the Time Lords didn't even know where the main Eye of Harmony was kept. And that was right under the Panopticon the entire time. The main power source for their entire civilisation and they didn't even know where it was.

Rassilon, by what fragments of history are left, was a bastard. He purposefully reworded records to paint himself as a hero and pioneer while eliminating as much knowledge about what came before as possible. Sure, he was a hero (Vampire Wars) and a pioneer (reshaped Gallifrey society) but he was a complete bastard who backstabbed Omega and directly messed with rest of life in the Universe because he wanted what life there was to better reflect what he thought it should look like.

The point of the Time War, from a production POV, was to get rid of the Time Lords - who, in the classic series, were tricky to write with because they were so incredibly powerful. Who can be really afraid of the Sontarans or Cybermen when, if they ever felt like it, the Time Lords could casually wipe them out of time? The Time Lords also stopped being enemies of the Doctor which led to a narrative conundrum that if the Doctor ever found himself up against something he couldn't beat himself, he could just call home and it would be sorted. Goodness knows, they ended up owing him enough favours...
It also added a new character element to the Doctor, a sense of tragedy and loneliness that they milked for everything that it was worth.

They brought back Rassilon (who had been hibernating/kept prisoner/whatever in the Death Zone) because they were getting desperate. They have used every big weapon they had in storage against the Daleks (only reserving The Moment because ... reasons) and the Daleks were still attacking. The Hand of Omega has been used against the Daleks - by the 7th Doctor in Remembrance of the Daleks, wherein the Doctor engineers the destruction of Skaro's solar system because he was awesome.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Okay Whovians I have some questions for you. 1) Why is Timelord history only remember from the time of Rassilon? I just listened to the 4th Doctor adventure The Abandoned (3.7) and it mentioned the Dark Crystals of Gallifrey. I have only noticed 2 places where anything Pre-Rassilon mention. One is the President of Gallifrey talking about the Black Scrolls, in The Five Doctors, as knowledge from the Dark Ages (meaning before Rassilon) and in the old New Adventures of Doctor Who series during one of the Cat's Cradle trilogy it describes a scene set right before Gallifrey enters the "enlightened age" where Rassilon meets with a witch/serer. Is it such a barbaric time it cannot be talked about? 2) What was the point of the Time War? I understand it was Russell Davis' way of explaining the tie that Doctor Who was off the air but looking back now it does not make sense. Why bring back Rassilon because he came back nuts? Have the Time Lords forgotten The Hand of Omega, The Great Key or the De-Mat Gun? Those weapons alone would have taken out the Daleks before the war started.

The Time War was RTD's way of bringing back the mystery surrounding The Doctor. It was a narrative hook. Plus it took the Time Lords off the playing field (something the classic series had been striving to do in its later years.) As for the Time War itself, one could say that it was The Doctor himself who had inspired the Daleks to seek their own Time Travel method. This necessitated the Time Lords to try and avert their creation to prevent them conquering all of time and space. Then it snowballed into constant back and forths between the races.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Doctor Who is really, really, really, really not that kind of television show.

Books and audio stuff might be different, but the show does not care one whit about that kind of canon intricacies and archaic minutiae.

And Time War Daleks were supposed to be them at the height of their power, with their own Hand Of Omega level stuff.
Timelords and Daleks were using these kind of weapons and ripping the universe apart doing so. Both sides had gone completely insane. Okay, one side started there already, and the Timelords were always halfway there anyway.

It's the Timelords that started the war in the first place in Genesis Of The Daleks.

Doctor Who is an odd show in that EVERYTHING is canon. Yet, at the same time, NONE of it is. The inconsistencies can be hand waved away as being the result of the Doctor's adventures. If I was showrunner, I would bring that in. Save everyone the headache of trying to make a consistent timeline. I would also fix the Doctors age. Just have him reply, "A few thousand years or so. Give or take a century or two. Mind you, one can never be too sure when travelling in time."

As for the Time War, it was The Doctor meeting the Daleks that truly set the Time War in action. If he hadn't crossed paths with them, they would never had got the idea to create their own time travel device (The Chase establishing that they created their time machine to take revenge on The Doctor.) With such knowledge at their disposal, it would have been a matter of time before they conquered time and space. So, in that regard, they were justified. However, the fact they tried opened them up for further reprisals i.e. Davros wanting to create duplicates to assassinate the High Council on Gallifrey and the retrieval/use of the Hand of Omega.

[Jokerz79]

Doctor Who is an odd show in that EVERYTHING is canon. Yet, at the same time, NONE of it is. The inconsistencies can be hand waved away as being the result of the Doctor's adventures. If I was showrunner, I would bring that in. Save everyone the headache of trying to make a consistent timeline. I would also fix the Doctors age. Just have him reply, "A few thousand years or so. Give or take a century or two. Mind you, one can never be too sure when travelling in time."

As for the Time War, it was The Doctor meeting the Daleks that truly set the Time War in action. If he hadn't crossed paths with them, they would never had got the idea to create their own time travel device (The Chase establishing that they created their time machine to take revenge on The Doctor.) With such knowledge at their disposal, it would have been a matter of time before they conquered time and space. So, in that regard, they were justified. However, the fact they tried opened them up for further reprisals i.e. Davros wanting to create duplicates to assassinate the High Council on Gallifrey and the retrieval/use of the Hand of Omega.

In my head Canon I just say it's all canon and due to the Doctor constantly messing with time and space the universes timeline is in constant flux and this is the very reason the Time Lords originally didn't want him messing with time so much.

[Somecrazyaussie]

In my head Canon I just say it's all canon and due to the Doctor constantly messing with time and space the universes timeline is in constant flux and this is the very reason the Time Lords originally didn't want him messing with time so much.

My thoughts exactly. It is why the Time Lords kept mostly to themselves. Yes, they still interacted with the broader universe and assisted where necessary, buf they would do so in such a way so as not to disrupt the Web Of Time (plus whenever it suited their needs.) The Doctor's constant trips back and forth in space and time means the Web is always influx. Plus he is constant dropping companions in time zones where their knowledge poses serious risks. It was a sad thing, but I agreed with them in wiping Jamie's and Zoe's memory at the conclusion of The War Games.

Plus exiled and retired Time Lords are allowed to leave Gallifrey. But they aren't given access to a working TARDIS and are confined to one space and time.

[ChrisIII]

The books and novels do kind of dwelve into this whole kind of time lord mythology, which had a lot of roots in the McCoy era (although there was also a great deal of build-up before, such as Tom Baker's stories which not only touched on Gallifrey's past, but it's affect on some other worlds), and even some of the New Adventure/BBC novels were based on rejected or unproduced ideas for episodes....such as the idea of the Doctor being the reincarnation of a contemporary of Rassilon and Omega, or Time lords being sterile, and basically genetically engineered with the regenerations to ensure longevity. Plus a lot of very weird stuff.

The new series has mostly ignored that, and added it's own touches here and there (the untempered schism being a big one, as well as some changes to the regeneration concept-the novels seemed to make it something sort of biological thing, but the new series seems to indicate it's more or less some form of radiation which activates the changes).

Granted, there have been a few nods to the fiction; RTD seems to aknowledge that Romana escaped from E-space and was Time lady president; also the idea of Rassilon returning and not being a good guy....and Gallifrey was likewise destroyed in the novels as well (but not by Daleks), but actually "not really" and could be restored, similar to what happened recently.

[Somecrazyaussie]

The books and novels do kind of dwelve into this whole kind of time lord mythology, which had a lot of roots in the McCoy era (although there was also a great deal of build-up before, such as Tom Baker's stories which not only touched on Gallifrey's past, but it's affect on some other worlds), and even some of the New Adventure/BBC novels were based on rejected or unproduced ideas for episodes....such as the idea of the Doctor being the reincarnation of a contemporary of Rassilon and Omega, or Time lords being sterile, and basically genetically engineered with the regenerations to ensure longevity. Plus a lot of very weird stuff.

The new series has mostly ignored that, and added it's own touches here and there (the untempered schism being a big one, as well as some changes to the regeneration concept-the novels seemed to make it something sort of biological thing, but the new series seems to indicate it's more or less some form of radiation which activates the changes).

Granted, there have been a few nods to the fiction; RTD seems to aknowledge that Romana escaped from E-space and was Time lady president; also the idea of Rassilon returning and not being a good guy....and Gallifrey was likewise destroyed in the novels as well (but not by Daleks), but actually "not really" and could be restored, similar to what happened recently.

Rassilon has always been a questionable figure. Time Lord history having romanticized him and his deeds. No doubt due to the fact Rassilon himself wrote it. I mean, here is a guy who backstabbed Omega. Then you have him manipulating the Eighth Doctor in the Divergent Arc over in the Big Finish audios. Then his "final solution" in The End Of Time. Every appearance of him in the various media out there flies in the face of Gallifrey's history.

Regeneration needs to be made a biological aspect of the Time Lords once again. Albeit one they introduced into their DNA themselves. I love the idea that regeneration is a process meant to renew ageing bodies. One that only goes smoothly in a controlled environment such as on Gallifrey or a Zero Room. It explains why the Doctor's regenerations have often been troublesome: Because his body is often forced to regenerate due to trauma. Plus it is often in uncontrolled environments.

[Vworp Vworp]

...as well as some changes to the regeneration concept-the novels seemed to make it something sort of biological thing, but the new series seems to indicate it's more or less some form of radiation which activates the changes.

It does?

[Somecrazyaussie]

It does?

I think he is referring to Artron energy. Which is present in the Time Vortex. The Eleventh Doctor put forward the theory in series 6 that Time Lords may have achieved regeneration by being exposed to the Untempered Schism. It is just a theory, though. There have been many explanations put forth. I prefer the theory that the Time Lords altered their biology. In particular, that it was Rassilon himself who sought out the means to avoid death. It makes sense in the fact they can grant new regeneration cycles.

One could combine both theories. That they altered their DNA at a molecular level by harnessing concentrated Artron Particles.

[Somecrazyaussie]

R.I.P David Fisher.

I'll always be grateful for The Stones Of Blood and The Androids Of Tara.

[Jokerz79]

Rewatched the Christmas Special and my only real complaint in rewatching it is New Who treating Regeneration as a Death over a Renewal.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Rewatched the Christmas Special and my only real complaint in rewatching it is New Who treating Regeneration as a Death over a Renewal.

When you take it as a death, it makes what happened to Troughton's Second Doctor even more harrowing. By being forced to Regenerate, he was effectively executed by the Time Lords.

[The Whovian]

In my head Canon I just say it's all canon and due to the Doctor constantly messing with time and space the universes timeline is in constant flux and this is the very reason the Time Lords originally didn't want him messing with time so much.

I completely agree with this