Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Celgress]

I’m very intrigued. It was a real noodle scratcher but I think I’m on board. I actually wouldn’t mind though having a tiny break from the Master

I greatly enjoyed the last three incarnations of the Master (especially Missy she was epic ) but this Master has er done nothing for me. He comes across as overly cartoony or like a lame Bond villain.

[Kirby101]

I’m very intrigued. It was a real noodle scratcher but I think I’m on board. I actually wouldn’t mind though having a tiny break from the Master

I am so done with the Master and all the "I am so crazy" shenanigans.

[Nate Grey]

Yeah this Joker Jr. act of this Master is tiresome. I don't even think Simms's Master was that manic. He literally seemed like an evil #10, which I'm guessing was the point.

Is that what they're going for here? The "Oh" Master is supposed to be a dark mirror of #13?

[ChrisIII]

Regeneration is still risky though. There has to be enough of a body to regenerate in the first place, really (If the Doctor were disintegrated, for instance, that wouldn't regenerate) and even after that the body and mind usually have a period before they stabilize, although some are quicker than others (The Eleventh Doctor, apart from a few physical hiccups and the food thing, seemed to pretty much be fully lucid).


Regarding the Master, we've also had him/her in three season finales with the Cybermen as well. (They only met once in the classic series, ditto with the Daleks). Actually wouldn't mind if he went back to basics and teamed up with the Autons again....


BTW there's rumors that Cole and Walsh are out after "Revolution". Which presumabely would have Yaz as the remaining companion.

[Kirby101]

Yeah this Joker Jr. act of this Master is tiresome. I don't even think Simms's Master was that manic. He literally seemed like an evil #10, which I'm guessing was the point.

Is that what they're going for here? The "Oh" Master is supposed to be a dark mirror of #13?

That's it. A poor man's Joker, who himself is a tired overused villain in the comics.

[Indian Ink]

Upon rewatching it's clear I missed more like ten minutes not three. I don't know how I missed the Ireland part being a rewrite overlay thing, though I did get a few texts around that point. I guess if your attention is distracted you may not notice what you're missing.

How could the humans on the ship be detected in while in armour, but not down on the planet by the other Cybermen whom could detect the other three at the tent camp. They should have gone; "We detect six humans!" Perhaps the individual on the ground Cybermen can't detect through armour, but I call bad writing

I've never liked the restriction to 12 regenerations, but that's the way it became. I don't like the rewrite that they became time travellers after the regenerative powers, instead of the other way around. I much prefer that the time stream life induced this effect. This means now that there's absolutely no connection between the two things! Bad writing.

The motivation for the Master to destroy Gallifrey is woeful. It, as already stated, would have been better if the master was the timeless child and getting vengeance for the exploitation. (and the Doctor would feel guilt for being part of the civilization that did it.) Bad writing.

How did one bad Time lord destroy Gallifrey when they were all war veterans from the time war and now used to attack? Bad writing

If the Time Lords were killed by the Master why didn't they regenerate, and if he killed all there regenerations there wouldn't have been any left for the cybermen. To prevent this, he'd have to capture each one as he goes, put them into suspended containment. All by himself. While fighting the rest! Bad writing.

The Time Lord cybermen aren't to have a full set of regenerations anyway (especially after the Time War) So you have to shoot them a few more times; big deal! Bad writing.

The episode did at least feel like Doctor Who, and they did mostly land the second part. If in a more than somewhat clumsy way. Perhaps by making the Ireland part meaningless window dressing in the first part to make the story seem more complicated than it was actually going to be. I can live with the Doctor being the Timeless child, but I'd rather that she COULD BE, not that she definitely is.

[ChrisIII]

The Time Lords have all kinds of nasty weapons and artifacts lying about that the Master could've stolen to do the job.For example- Eye of Harmony, Hand of Omega, Nemesis, the Moment etc.

We've kind of had the Master's origin and being manipulated by the time lords already (The sound of drums thing) so having him be the TC would be kind of doing that again.

Yeah, the thing about retconning the Regenerations connection to the vortex does kind of not make sense when you consider that's vortex stuff is probably how River got her regenerative powers, and I think there's also a line that says the untempored schism caused them to evolve to regenerate (Of course that's presumabely a lie told to the Doctor).


I found the Cyber-Masters a bit goofy (with the frowns and time lord garb), kind of curious how he managed to create them so quickly. Some kind of quick conversion tech from the Cybercarrier that he redesigned a bit to add frowns and Time lord symbols?

[ChrisIII]

So in Trial of a Time Lord, the Doctor said that the time lords had "absolute power" for about ten million years.....so that pretty much means there would be a crazy amount of Doctor incarnations (as he/she is as old as Gallifrey's civilization)...and of course the Doctor is no longer about 2000ish years old.


I'm kind of curious if we'll see more "Forgotten Doctors" pop up next season. Could have some interesting possibilities.

[Jokerz79]

I'm going to assume Ruth was a version of the Master working with her male Counterpart to mess with the Doctor and the Timeless Child nonsense is them having a laugh. Yeah that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[ChrisIII]

Given the Master's frequent use of disguises or aliases (Saxon, Yana sort of, Missy to a degree, O, and all those Pertwee stories where his fake name was pretty much just a twist on the word Master) that's not totally out of the question.

[Cyke]

How did one bad Time lord destroy Gallifrey when they were all war veterans from the time war and now used to attack? Bad writing

I imagine the same way that no one can really prepare for an explosion they had no idea was going to happen. Take the most experienced warrior you know (a real life veteran, or Rambo, or Wolverine, or whatever) and experience is pointless there.

If the Time Lords were killed by the Master why didn't they regenerate, and if he killed all there regenerations there wouldn't have been any left for the cybermen. To prevent this, he'd have to capture each one as he goes, put them into suspended containment. All by himself. While fighting the rest! Bad writing.

Not that it's on the viewer to figure this out, but Time Lords have the tech to delay, incur, or control regenerations. They subjected the Second Doctor to regeneration against his will remotely, for example, and Romana played with regeneration as if she were changing outfits in a closet. But they also have the tech to control time in a variety of ways as well, so it'd be quite easy, I imagine, to combine the two so that there's no fighting (being frozen) while delaying regeneration. Even stasis fields and mid-transmat have been things used to incapacitate in the show.

But it would be nice to see, agreed.

The Time Lord cybermen aren't to have a full set of regenerations anyway (especially after the Time War) So you have to shoot them a few more times; big deal! Bad writing.

Eh, by definition it would still be a Cyberman that has to be shot a maximum of 12 times, when usually one shot does the job. That's 12 times the effort, multiplied by an army.

Plus, if it's a fresh regeneration, Time Lords can regrow limbs and withstand enormous impact from falling out of great heights. Still preferable and exponentially more dangerous than a regular Cyberman. Additionally, coming back from regeneration usually means a fresh, undamaged body in its prime, without all the prior damage whatsoever.

[Patrick Gerard]

OK, so literally everything you typed in that post is wrong, but let's just pick this one cos it's probably the most "I'm sorry, what now?"

How does the Doctor having a past that neither we or she knew about, in any conceivable way, diminish the actions of any of those characters?

Because the Doctor was never at any real risk of dying or running out of regenerations.

[Patrick Gerard]

This. It really is just a variation on what we may have got if the show hadn't been axed. I'm not saying TTC was perfect, and I am not totally sold on the direction Chibnall is taking, but it does help settle a number of glaring story hurdles - The Doctor has unlimited regenerations. So that never needs to be addressed again. It also explains why the Time Lords never executed the Doctor and sent her into exile (can't kill her if she'll just regenerate).

We have to understand that The Doctor had forgotten about her true past via Time Lord mind wipes and blockers etc. So, from her standpoint, her stand on Trenzalore was it for her.

And if you want to go into detail, Clara asked the Time Lords to "help him change the future". One could reason the energy they supplied him with was a boost to add the regeneration so it could take out the Daleks and their main ship (That was like an atomic explosion). The Doctor's future implied he met his end on Trenzalore and, for him, it was deemed true as he wasn't aware of his true past and his abilities. But events played out different and negated it.

Plus the Big reason - the writers hadnt thought of going down this route until now. Plus this direction can be undone or negated later on. Nothing is ever set in stone when it comes to Who.

The writers absolutely had thought about going down this route though! Both in the infamous "master plan" and at various other points. And they rejected it. And now that rejection has been walked back in a way that de-centers Gallifreyan mythology in favor of whatever replaces it -- which I'm now prejudiced to regard as inferior. The Doctor was a REBEL and is now a VICTIM.

[ChrisIII]

Because the Doctor was never at any real risk of dying or running out of regenerations.

I think under the right circumstances the Doctor could still die. Regenerations aren't always a sure thing.

Speaking of which, kind of makes you wonder what's up with the other regenerations of the TC. Was Tecteun causing them somehow or was the TC just kind of accident prone?


I also kind of thought of Missy's line in the Magician's apprentice a bit.

".......Since he was a little girl. One of those was a little lie, can you guess which?"

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Despite "the timeless child" reveal, I really enjoyed the episode. I'm pretty excited about the "revolution of the Daleks" special and series 13. I liked the idea of the timeless child" but I'm mixed on who it should be.