Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Celgress]

Thanks, Matt for a great summation of everything that is wrong with this Doctor.

It makes me sad the 13th Doctor is such a nonentity. I expected such great things from the first female Doctor, especially after the tour de force which was Missy. Perhaps it is simply down to bad writing, Chibs, well, he sucks as showrunner. I hate to see anyone lose their job but in Chibs' case, I'll make an exception. The man really needs to go ASAP, IMO.

[Tendrin]

Realllllllllly disliking the Timeless Child retcons. It's stripping the Doctor of some of their best attributes for the sake of making their origins some kind of 'mystery' again, but the cost is simply too high.

[Celgress]

Realllllllllly disliking the Timeless Child retcons. It's stripping the Doctor of some of their best attributes for the sake of making their origins some kind of 'mystery' again, but the cost is simply too high.

I hate the Chosen One/Space Jesus aspect of the retcon more than anything else. It reduces the Doctor's origin and character to a bad, uncreative sci-fi/fantasy trope, IMO.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Realllllllllly disliking the Timeless Child retcons. It's stripping the Doctor of some of their best attributes for the sake of making their origins some kind of 'mystery' again, but the cost is simply too high.

I admire Chibnall for having the balls to go through with such a retcon (not even RTD or Moffat ever did anything too radical with the Doctor's origin). It makes the Time Lords even more reprehensible (which I honestly didn't think was possible at this point). But it makes the Doctor less of a character now. I mean, The Doctor's entire existence and everything she has done is now just the result of whatever schemes the Time Lords had going on.

We haven't even got into where the Doctor originates from now (which will probably be a thread in series 13).

[Nate Grey]

Which, of course, was part of the Master's plan all along. He wanted his TARDIS on board the Doctors. It was a deliberate act.

Getting back on track, 13th's general helplessness really does not help to sell this incarnation. Yes, the 5th had a similar philosophy but that wasn't one of his strong suits - his compassion and humility were. That and, when the chips were down, he could get worked up and get done what needed to be done. 5 also didn't babble to himself a great deal, a trait which does little but demonstrate how clueless 13 is a lot of the time, the madly trying to put pieces together instead of calmly/confidently working the problem, or having an actual plan in motion.

1 - The original, didn't even have two hearts, the beginner. Physically frail but still a force to be reckoned with. Had the ability to cut down people just with a stare and words.
2 - The background schemer, standing at the back pushing the right people to do the right thing. Used his hobo/clownish appearance to make people underestimate him.
3 - The eccentric scientist. Logic and reason used to control any situation as soon as possible. Passionate about humanitarian causes such as the environment.
4 - Larger than life, oozed confidence in almost every situation. Even when Gallifrey was actually invaded, it was all part of a larger plan.
5 - The humanitarian, the compassionate one. Not as much control and confidence as the rest but his humility and appeals to the best part of people were great traits.
6 - ROUGH start. Emotional instability turned into raging arrogance, but by the end he could walk into almost any situation and have control. Especially in the Big Finish stories (where 6 really does shine).
7 - The master manipulator. The schemer. Plans within plans within plans. 7 held that sacrifices sometimes had to be made for the greater good. Definite convictions and stood his ground for all of them.
And so on.

13 just doesn't seem to have the control or confidence of earlier incarnations. The way that The Timeless Child just makes the Doctor a victim is just thematically wrong somehow. That just seems to shine through with 13 as well, she doesn't pop through the universe standing up for what's right like the others, she seems to simply amble and stumble her way through situations.

first of all...exactly. Bravo. I'd love to see you do the rest (8-12).

Second of all...given how The Woman Who Fell To Earth ended, I thought this would have been #13 in a nutshell, just...expanded. Clip already cued up:

EDIT: Ok it won't go to the index if I'm sharing it (ironic: so why give me the option?), so go to 2 minute 35 second mark:



I thought of this when that dude shot the teeth-faced assassin off the platform and #13 said "You didn't have to do that." That would have been her angle: Peace, or else. And the conflict is achieving the "or else" without turning into a monster. She's the teacher, the universe the classroom, and the single lesson, "Why The Doctor Never Would."

SMH. #13 would shine like the brightest star at Big Finish.

[Cyke]

13 just doesn't seem to have the control or confidence of earlier incarnations. The way that The Timeless Child just makes the Doctor a victim is just thematically wrong somehow. That just seems to shine through with 13 as well, she doesn't pop through the universe standing up for what's right like the others, she seems to simply amble and stumble her way through situations.

My god, that's it. That's my problem with the Doctor being the Timeless Child -- they're born into greatness and that makes them passive recipients of that greatness. Whereas all this time the Doctor was a rebel, explorer, and advocate, it still meant 12(13) lives of being someone active and full of their own agency. Someone who had a distaste for upper class aristocracy because things would be given to them, someone who made it a point to value everyone regardless of class because they saw lower classes taking active roles in their own lives. By the same token, the Doctor often scoffed and challenged the Time Lords because they were the ultimate aristocracy across time and space.

This is also further reason why I believe the Master should have been the Timeless Child -- born to great power and privilege, but also no slouch in giving themself agency, just as much of the Doctor. However, the Master would have the Doctor at an even worse disadvantage because now he's more powerful than ever. The Master's never been one to rest of his laurels alone, and the Doctor's usually foiled the Master by the skin of their teeth, but now the gap would have been even wider simply because while the Doctor exerts effort, the Master could now exert effort and legacy on his side. Knowledge is power and the Master would have the severe advantage in that area for a change.

[Tendrin]

I admire Chibnall for having the balls to go through with such a retcon (not even RTD or Moffat ever did anything too radical with the Doctor's origin). It makes the Time Lords even more reprehensible (which I honestly didn't think was possible at this point). But it makes the Doctor less of a character now. I mean, The Doctor's entire existence and everything she has done is now just the result of whatever schemes the Time Lords had going on.

We haven't even got into where the Doctor originates from now (which will probably be a thread in series 13).

Oh, sure. It's definitely bold.

I'm just less than interested in it. It's okay that the Doctor had lost some mystery after fifty years. Trying to put that genie back in the box is a terrible idea. It loses some of the Doctor's most interesting attributes and instead makes them ultimately a prisoner and victim /throughout the entire incarnation of every show/. It's just... not.. good. I really, ardently dislike that.

[Cyke]

Oh, sure. It's definitely bold.

I'm just less than interested in it. It's okay that the Doctor had lost some mystery after fifty years. Trying to put that genie back in the box is a terrible idea. It loses some of the Doctor's most interesting attributes and instead makes them ultimately a prisoner and victim /throughout the entire incarnation of every show/. It's just... not.. good. I really, ardently dislike that.

I'll say this about RTD, Moffatt, and even Chibnall's first season - at least the mysteries reached a conclusion. The last half of this season was all about, "But wait, there's more!" of mystery, tease, more mystery, more tease, and once we got to the end of the finale, a far bigger mystery than before.

At a certain point, I lose interest, and that interest is replaced by boredom and fatigue. And the repeat, to me, feels a lot like burnout on the Walking Dead where the pattern is wash, rinse, repeat. Relief and breathers can be a good thing.

[ChrisIII]

Is the Doctor technically the victim? It's not made clear but it's possible he/she was willing to participate with the regeneration experiments and the work for the Division, at least until the Ruth incarnation. Ruth also appeared more comfortable using weapons which struck the Doctor as being against her usual code. Ditto with the Brendan story, Brendan [I]wanted[I] to be an officer, remember.

Maybe the memory wipe was because he or she did something unthinkable, like her intervention messed up a whole civilization, or even something evil?

[Matt]

What appears to be a clueless and abandoned child, a person with no agency or real ability to effectively protest, taken to a lab and scientifically experimented on essentially endlessly? To the point where their body keeps being killed.

That's a victim right there, and a pretty damn obvious one.

[Tendrin]

Whoops! /10 chars

[Celgress]

What appears to be a clueless and abandoned child, a person with no agency or real ability to effectively protest, taken to a lab and scientifically experimented on essentially endlessly? To the point where their body keeps being killed.

That's a victim right there, and a pretty damn obvious one.

Um, yeah, I agree the Doctor had no say in the matter, or power to do otherwise. This was a clear cut case of exploitation (and child exploitation at that) all the way. I don't know how anyone can seriously argue otherwise.

Thanks again Chibs for turning the Doctor into the ultimate victim, oh, and Space Jesus....

[Steel Inquisitor]

Is Chibnall in any danger of being replaced? This season was progress from the first one but they need someone of a higher caliber. How about Phoebe Waller-Bridge?

[Silvermoth]

Oh wow that would be fun

[ChrisIII]

I think the next season is going forward with Chibnall & Jodie at least but I'm not sure going beyond that.

with three seasons, That's pretty much the average for Doctors (Smith & Capaldi, for example, although hiatuses drew things out a bit) although showrunners often stay on longer. JNT, for example, went through four Doctors and 9 years; RTD for nearly 5, and Moffat stuck around for 7.

Hartnell, Troughton, and Tom Baker I think went through multiple producers/showrunners though. I think Pertwee was the only run where pretty much the Doctor and producer both came and went at the same time more or less (although I suppose you could also count the TV movie); although in both Pertwee and Baker's cases the last producer made the first episode to help with the transition. (Hence why Robot pretty much feels like a late Pertwee story although Tom's persona is completely different)