Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Somecrazyaussie]

Seems we haven't heard much about Jodie leaving for a month and a half.

Those rumours only swirled because of the New Year's special. Once the show is close to premiering they'll pick up again.

[Somecrazyaussie]

True. Jodie Whitaker, Bradley Walsh, and the rest are great. It's just that the writing during the Chibnall era has been hit-and-miss. There's been some good stuff (the Dalek episodes, Arachnids in the UK, Rosa) and some 'good message but horribly executed' stuff like Orphan 55. And then there's the 'bad comic book' stuff like Gallifrey being destroyed again and the whole Timeless Child retcon.

Orphan 55 was seriously bad. Just absolutely ludicrous cheap comic level sci-fi. Right up there with Kill The Moon.

[Somecrazyaussie]

The Timeless Child thing sort of explains why the Seventh Doctor seems to have some vague knowledge of ancient Gallifrey, and also some points in the original series where the Doctor hinted at earlier incarnations.

It wasn't really canon that Hartnell was the 'first' until the Peter Davison era, I think.

I think it's implied a bit that the Doctor has some vague or subconscious memories of his pre-Hartnell lives (The Master did hint in was "buried deep in our memories)", that weren't wiped by the Time Lords, hence probably why he named himself the Doctor again and had the TARDIS take on a police box shape.

Just mostly speculating.

I don't know, Hartnell should have the honour of being the first. But doing stuff like that throws the numbering out of whack (admittedly Moffat broke that in his need to tell the absolute "Last Regeneration" story). It also cements the Doctor with a backstory You can allude to The Doctor being God, one of the founding figures of Gallifrey etc. But never, ever cement something in stone. Doing that robs the character of the mystery. The very reason of "Doctor Who?".

[evolutionaryFan]

I just got a britbox subscription to watch classic Dr. Who. I've got to say, the character of Dr. Who himself is one of my least favorite aspects of the show. After hearing people fawn over Tom Baker's portrayal... I really didn't like it much. The Dr. is to me is generally an exhausting character. More obnoxious than funny to me.

I was liking the 2nd doctor(Patrick Troughton). He was far less arrogant than the other versions. But most of his episodes seem to be missing.

I am really impressed with the sci-fi and story ideas of the show considering this is from the 60s and 70s... we get the Terminator idea(Day of the Daleks) more than a decade before the movie came out. We also get a very cool space-horror type story(Ark in Space) 4 years before Alien.

My favorite doctor has been the 9th doctor, Christopher Eccleston.

[ChrisIII]

I don't know, Hartnell should have the honour of being the first. But doing stuff like that throws the numbering out of whack (admittedly Moffat broke that in his need to tell the absolute "Last Regeneration" story). It also cements the Doctor with a backstory You can allude to The Doctor being God, one of the founding figures of Gallifrey etc. But never, ever cement something in stone. Doing that robs the character of the mystery. The very reason of "Doctor Who?".

I'd say there's still an element of mystery there, we don't know exactly where the Timeless child came from in the first place, although it's implied to be another universe. Also her native species; do they all regenerate and are therefore more 'natural' time lords perhaps? Was that even her first life etc?

[ChrisIII]

I just got a britbox subscription to watch classic Dr. Who. I've got to say, the character of Dr. Who himself is one of my least favorite aspects of the show. After hearing people fawn over Tom Baker's portrayal... I really didn't like it much. The Dr. is to me is generally an exhausting character. More obnoxious than funny to me.

I was liking the 2nd doctor(Patrick Troughton). He was far less arrogant than the other versions. But most of his episodes seem to be missing.

I am really impressed with the sci-fi and story ideas of the show considering this is from the 60s and 70s... we get the Terminator idea(Day of the Daleks) more than a decade before the movie came out. We also get a very cool space-horror type story(Ark in Space) 4 years before Alien.

My favorite doctor has been the 9th doctor, Christopher Eccleston.

Tom's Doctor was around so long, Tom's approach kind of depended on his producers/script editors. While he of course did have his comic moments, in his earlier seasons he's generally more aloof and serious. It's in part I think because a lot of his stuff is based on horror films, so naturally there was a bit of a darker tone.

However this actually proved fairly controversial at the time, especially since the show is often marketed towards kids. So midway through that they went for a lighter tone, especially with season 17 which kind of went almost all camp.

Tom's final season is when things got serious again pretty much, although instead of horror (although the E-space trilogy still had horror elements esp. State of Decay) they tried for a more serious sci-fi approach which sort of carried on to Davison.


Troughton's episodes have unfortunately mostly been lost, this is true of many of Hartnells as well, and even some of Pertwees are only available in black and white or with some quality issues. I'm not an expert on the British TV model, but as I understand it, at least back then a lot of the shows were only meant to be seen once and didn't have as many 'reruns', so a lot of episodes were disposed of (Doctor Who is not the only victim).

Some have been recovered though, often by using broadcasts sold to other countries or territories-"Tomb of the Cybermen" for example was found in Hong Kong. Also some episodes that have only the audio tracks remaining have had some new animations made.


I think Troughton's final season is the most intact, but it's also probably his weakest IMO, although Mind Robber, Invasion and War Games are pretty good. Seeds of Death has some very cool directing and cinematography but kind of drags a lot.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Stranded 2 comes out today. I finished listening to it and it's a different feeling from the first.

[Celgress]

I mean, i may buy some but I'll often be skeptical

I'm going to be blunt here: if you truly believe in the cause you have to buy/watch everything you can. Dr. Who became very "woke" and was praised by social media but in doing so turned off much of its traditional older fans. The older fans left and data has indicated the social media people are not actually watching the show or purchasing the merchandise (something the older fans bought huge amounts of). It has gotten so bad there are rumors Dr. Who will likely be canceled soon.

[CosmiComic]

I'm going to be blunt here: if you truly believe in the cause you have to buy/watch everything you can. Dr. Who became very "woke" and was praised by social media but in doing so turned off much of its traditional older fans. The older fans left and data has indicated the social media people are not actually watching the show or purchasing the merchandise (something the older fans bought huge amounts of). It has gotten so bad there are rumors Dr. Who will likely be canceled soon.

New Who is questionable right now, but I'm not sure it's because of wokeness

[Celgress]

New Who is questionable right now, but I'm not sure it's because of wokeness

I'm fairly sure because everywhere I look on and off-line I hear older fans complaining about it. They hate the "wokeness" and blame it for the bad writing.

[CosmiComic]

I'm fairly sure because everywhere I look on and off-line I hear older fans complaining about it. They hate the "wokeness" and blame it for the bad writing.

Yeah, but I don't agree with them. I think the storylines are questionable and the Doctor herself needs more personality. That has nothing to do with diversity or social awareness

People need to learn a woke movie or show can be bad but not due to wokeness

[Celgress]

Yeah, but I don't agree with them. I think the storylines are questionable and the Doctor herself needs more personality. That has nothing to do with diversity or social awareness

People need to learn a woke movie or show can be bad but not due to wokeness

It isn't a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. If people want "woke" products to survive they have to support them especially when the existing fanbase gets turned off by the new direction.

[Derek Metaltron]

Doctor Who's current issues stem mostly from having a terrible overseer who feels pushing agendas for the sake of agendas and courting controversy via continuity breaking, and also increasing the political and messaging in the show. Doctor Who has always been able to say things about politics and climate change, but now the current overseer elects to knock people over the head with it. The tragedy is that Jodie herself is a great Doctor... she's just sandbagged with a bad overseer. And for every quality episode (including Rosa which did a fantastic job of saying its message without being so preachy about it) there's a terrible one like Orphan 55 or an episode like Arachnids In The UK which is a decent script let down by a Trump clone which the show is using to say how bad Trump is. Yes BBC, we get it.

There's also smaller issues like the quality of writing from some guest episode writers and the lack of character development for the companions, but that's probably the biggest reason why Doctor Who has lost some fans. The fact that Jodie is leaving and yet Chris is staying on will not bring them back since they know the quality is unlikely to improve once she departs, whoever replaces her.

[CosmiComic]

Doctor Who's current issues stem mostly from having a terrible overseer who feels pushing agendas for the sake of agendas and courting controversy via continuity breaking, and also increasing the political and messaging in the show. Doctor Who has always been able to say things about politics and climate change, but now the current overseer elects to knock people over the head with it. The tragedy is that Jodie herself is a great Doctor... she's just sandbagged with a bad overseer. And for every quality episode (including Rosa which did a fantastic job of saying its message without being so preachy about it) there's a terrible one like Orphan 55 or an episode like Arachnids In The UK which is a decent script let down by a Trump clone which the show is using to say how bad Trump is. Yes BBC, we get it.

There's also smaller issues like the quality of writing from some guest episode writers and the lack of character development for the companions, but that's probably the biggest reason why Doctor Who has lost some fans. The fact that Jodie is leaving and yet Chris is staying on will not bring them back since they know the quality is unlikely to improve once she departs, whoever replaces her.

What exactly are they knocking us over the head with?

[Derek Metaltron]

What exactly are they knocking us over the head with?

Stuff like Trump is bad! and Climate Change is a thing! And I'm not saying you can't do so, but Doctor Who used to be way better with that sort of thing. Watching an story like The Green Death which handled climate change in the 70's far better than anything in Orphan 55 is a little upsetting to me.