Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Kintor]

I can understand that when you put it that. It gives off the vibe of being too polished and safe, but I thought the tooth faced space warrior was a great start.

Playing it safe is putting it midly, its almost as if Chibnall is afraid to create compelling villains. After all, the Daleks are a cultural icon in their own right, those genocidal trash cans are arguably more recognisable across the world then the Tardis. So I think Krasko was made so weak because Chibnall was deathly afraid his 'cosmic rascist' would become charismatic even if the audience didn't agree with his views. Which is to the detriment of the story as a whole.

Those all sound pretty terrible to me, so kudos for the writers for not giving us anything even remotely like what was mentioned here.

That's not to say the time traveling racist pretending to be a greaser was a great and memorable villain, but he suited the tone of the story.

I get what you're saying but I think this attitude is the wrong approach. Rather then finding a weak villain to match the tone of this story what should've happened is finding a story to match the tone of Doctor Who. I've already seen plenty of comments online comparing Rosa to low sci-fi American shows like Timeless and I think that's true. Rosa has little in common with the rest of new Doctor Who, it's just missing that spark that made Doctor Who unique.

[thwhtGuardian]

Playing it safe is putting it midly, its almost as if Chibnall is afraid to create compelling villains. After all, the Daleks are a cultural icon in their own right, those genocidal trash cans are arguably more recognisable across the world then the Tardis. So I think Krasko was made so weak because Chibnall was deathly afraid his 'cosmic rascist' would become charismatic even if the audience didn't agree with his views. Which is to the detriment of the story as a whole.


I get what you're saying but I think this attitude is the wrong approach. Rather then finding a weak villain to match the tone of this story what should've happened is finding a story to match the tone of Doctor Who. I've already seen plenty of comments online comparing Rosa to low sci-fi American shows like Timeless and I think that's true. Rosa has little in common with the rest of new Doctor Who, it's just missing that spark that made Doctor Who unique.

I'm not going to lie, I like the big, flashy episodes a lot too, but there is room for quiet character driven episodes as well...and both takes are true to Who.

[The Whovian]

So, I wanted to comment on the new season before this but I couldn't because my cable went out and I had to resort to watching it at a friend's. Needless to say, I was not happy with my cable company.

Anyhow, on to the episodes. I thought the first episode was really good. Not great, but good.

Nice start to the season I thought and then I watched the second episode. Ugh. What complete garbage. The only good part of the episode was the return of the Tardis. But then she opens the door and walks in and my first reaction was "That is uuuuugly! The whole room looks like an alien prison". It's too stale and dark. All of the previous Tardisis had a bright charm to them. This one is bad. Just bad.

And then the third episode. Look, I thought the Rosa Parks story was moving and powerful. I almost teared up at the end. I wanted to reach into the tv and throttle that bus driver.

That being said, this didn't feel like a Doctor Who story. It was more like Chibnall wanted to tell the story of race tensions, which is fine if he's doing a documentary, but not Doctor Who. I want fun, cosmic, space stories.

And next week's episode is on earth as well. So that's 3 of the first 4 episodes taking place on earth.

As far as the characters go, I like Graham. He's a wonderful actor. I need to see more from the other two companions before making a decision on whether I like them or not.

Jodie is a very talented actress and I think she's been okay so far, but I'm just not quite feeling her as the Doctor yet. That could change as the season continues though.

[thwhtGuardian]

So, I wanted to comment on the new season before this but I couldn't because my cable went out and I had to resort to watching it at a friend's. Needless to say, I was not happy with my cable company.

Anyhow, on to the episodes. I thought the first episode was really good. Not great, but good.

Nice start to the season I thought and then I watched the second episode. Ugh. What complete garbage. The only good part of the episode was the return of the Tardis. But then she opens the door and walks in and my first reaction was "That is uuuuugly! The whole room looks like an alien prison". It's too stale and dark. All of the previous Tardisis had a bright charm to them. This one is bad. Just bad.

And then the third episode. Look, I thought the Rosa Parks story was moving and powerful. I almost teared up at the end. I wanted to reach into the tv and throttle that bus driver.

That being said, this didn't feel like a Doctor Who story. It was more like Chibnall wanted to tell the story of race tensions, which is fine if he's doing a documentary, but not Doctor Who. I want fun, cosmic, space stories.

And next week's episode is on earth as well. So that's 3 of the first 4 episodes taking place on earth.

As far as the characters go, I like Graham. He's a wonderful actor. I need to see more from the other two companions before making a decision on whether I like them or not.

Jodie is a very talented actress and I think she's been okay so far, but I'm just not quite feeling her as the Doctor yet. That could change as the season continues though.

I just don't understand that sentiment...the great part about Who is that it's a vehicle for all kinds of genre stories and its been that way since its inception.

[Derek Metaltron]

Agreed, there are really only three core concepts on Who which should always be there - the Doctor, the Companion and the TARDIS. All else is flexible.

[Jokerz79]

I have to wonder how Hartnell's or Pertwee's first series would had done these days. Hartnell had many strictly historical stories with no sci-fi elements. While Pertwee was stuck on Earth in one time period helping UNIT and the Tardis was rarely seen given it was useless. Honestly during Pertwee's first series the show had more in common with Torchwood than Modern Who. But I loved both and alas wonder how they would do today also there is the factor of both men being older men something many young people may not be interested in to today.

[thwhtGuardian]

I have to wonder how Hartnell's or Pertwee's first series would had done these days. Hartnell had many strictly historical stories with no sci-fi elements. While Pertwee was stuck on Earth in one time period helping UNIT and the Tardis was rarely seen given it was useless. Honestly during Pertwee's first series the show had more in common with Torchwood than Modern Who. But I loved both and alas wonder how they would do today also there is the factor of both men being older men something many young people may not be interested in to today.

Those Doctors are two of my favorites as well, and the breadth of stories they were able to take part in is really the deciding factor on why I love them.

[ChrisIII]

Seems it's following the usual pattern for new Doctors's first three episodes like Clockwork.

You start with the Earthbound story (Rose/Christmas Invasion/Eleventh Hour/Deep Breath/The Woman who fell) Then the trip into space (End of the World/New Earth/Beast Below/Into the Dalek/The Ghost Monument) and then another Earthbound but set in the past/ "Celebrity historical" (Unquiet Dead/Tooth and Claw/Victory of the Daleks/Robots of Sherwood/Rosa).

[The Whovian]

I just don't understand that sentiment...the great part about Who is that it's a vehicle for all kinds of genre stories and its been that way since its inception.

And I agree with that. But this particular episode just didn't feel like a DW story. I enjoy the show more when the stories are off earth.

[The Darknight Detective]

One of the more interesting parts of the climactic scene was Graham wanting to get off the bus but being told by The Doctor that he couldn't. His "I don't want to be involved" declaration was heartbreaking in its own way.

That whole scene was as good as it gets. It was a struggle not getting teary eyed when Rosa finally made her important and righteous stand. I also totally get Graham not wanting to be involved - I would have felt like a usurper myself if I had been in his position.

[thwhtGuardian]

And I agree with that. But this particular episode just didn't feel like a DW story. I enjoy the show more when the stories are off earth.

But that's just the thing...it's a show that can go anywhere and be anything and that's been the standard since the start.

I mean, sure truth be told my list of favorite episodes that I can watch again and again would lean towards the fun, sci-fi end of the spectrum with 1964's "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" 2011's "The Doctor's Wife", 1975's Genesis of the Daleks, 1967's "The Tomb of the Cybermen" 2008's "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead" and 2015's "Heaven Sent"...but that's not all there is to the show and I wouldn't want it all to be like that.

The surprise factor, that feeling that the next episode could be about anything and be anywhere is what keeps me coming back. So one week the Doctor can be dodging ray blasts from the Cybermen but the next week could be a creepy horror story set during WWII ( "Empty Child") or a romance like 2007's "Human Nature" and then the next it could be a true life look at history like we got here in "Rosa" or way back in 1964 with "The Aztecs".

[Somecrazyaussie]

Kinda surprised that there was no brief allusions to Captain Jack. Especially given the fact Krasko was using a vortex manipulator like Jack did. Stormcage getting a nod is great. Last I knew it was a prison, but this episode reveals it is back to being called a containment unit.

I can see the appeal in not wanting to use any past villains, but the guy in Rosa was The Monk in everything but name. So I feel it might have been better had it been revealed that was exactly who it was. The episode next week seems to revolve around spiders. So I don't see why they didn't just use the Eight-Legs from Metebelis 3.

[JKtheMac]

Kinda surprised that there was no brief allusions to Captain Jack. Especially given the fact Krasko was using a vortex manipulator like Jack did. Stormcage getting a nod is great. Last I knew it was a prison, but this episode reveals it is back to being called a containment unit.

I can see the appeal in not wanting to use any past villains, but the guy in Rosa was The Monk in everything but name. So I feel it might have been better had it been revealed that was exactly who it was. The episode next week seems to revolve around spiders. So I don't see why they didn't just use the Eight-Legs from Metebelis 3.

Quite clearly they don't want to overload the show with references. We do get subtle ones for the fans but for the casual viewer the thing they are trying to avoid is the feeling that you need to catch up with over 50 years of continuity. Yes for many of us older viewers we think of the Meddling Monk, but he is one of the most obscure and irrelevant characters ever. That is why he gets referenced by fans, as a badge of honour.

We had this era, RTD did this constantly, referencing old continuity even when there was no reason to do it. It was fun for a while, but the idea that everything we will ever meet in the infinite possibilities of the format, will be a variation on what we have already seen, is a little dull and undermining of the promise and premise of Doctor Who.

I listen to a lot of podcast reviews which are varied and fascinating. A common theme that comes up is how much this show is actually referencing older continuity despite the claims, but they are things the casual viewers will be oblivious to, like the Tomb of the Cybermen callback in episode 1. That seems to be a good balance to me.

Another common question is 'how come The Doctor has never heard of the Stenza'. Surely it is clear that if we have got to the point where fans expect The Doctor to know about every civilisation, in the whole of mutable time and space, we have drifted too far from the wonderful thing about the show.

[JKtheMac]

Doctor Who is a very clear example of why you can't please everyone all of the time. The villain in Rosa is an interesting figure to consider.

When deciding to write about a clearly important but sensitive subject they would have discussed how much of a science fiction element would be necessary. A pure historical, which effectively shows the characters getting embroiled in the events at hand, would have been problematic in the extreme. It would suggest that The Doctor and her companions caused the timeline we are familiar with, reducing the agency of the key protagonists.

The solution makes perfect sense. Have a simple and understandable premise, a rogue time-traveller who is interfering and trying to change history, so that the show can emphasise protecting history and make the point that small and independent actions build into more significant ones. Anyone that knows the history of these events knows it wasn't just a random event, and indeed this show alluded to that. A certain amount of planning and forethought went into this small act, but even then it was important that it happened in exactly the same way because of the uncertainty of events generally. If it had happened on a different day in a slightly different way things may have been different.

So having settled on this theme and the villain the next important thing would be not to distract from the main action and themes. It is necessary for the villain to be less important and more faintly drawn. The point of the show isn't the villain. He isn't even really a villain in the traditional sense. However they needed to give him motive and make him a genuine threat. All of those things needed to be balanced with sensitivity to match the themes of the show but not to detract from the key elements of the story.

And yet the people that are watching for science fiction shenanigans will perhaps be disappointed, so they need to add gagetry and imply a wider scope of events, along with oblique references to possible antagonists for other shows.

Sometimes I think fans imagine making an episode like this is as easy as it is to sit down and watch it. Just about every criticism aimed at it was probably considered and weighed up by the team. An individual fan need not think it is the best episode ever or representative of their tastes. But the show is bigger than any one of us or even one large clique of fans. Look at the number of people watching. Look at the number of people that it took to have Rosa trending on Twitter. They outnumber any gathering of fans.

[brettc1]

Not feeling this new series so far. The new Tardis design doesn't impress me, and the new Doctor is kinda meh. I would still rate this regeneration above the 6th and 7th, but like the 5th is does little to wow me. It's just kinda okay-ish.