Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Nate Grey]

I never said they did or didn't.

So why mention that in regards to Bill? Rhetorical at this point, I promise you...

They got happy endings

If you mean with each other, fine. But it was written in that the Doctor could never see them again. And I stand by what I said to Baseman, which oddly doesn't seem open to interpretation since I'm going by words actually spoken by several characters on screen. But fair enough.

however, when a tragic one would have been just as easy to implement.

Tragedy for tragedy's sake, sir?

And please don't assume what people think about Bill.

When the overwhelming majority express "disappointment" at Bill's ultimate fate it would be foolish to assume otherwise.

I actually quite liked the character

Then I wasn't talking about you. Seems simple enough.

[Matt]

In other news, over the weekend I went to Oz Comic Con in Melbourne.

I managed to get to the Sylvester McCoy panel and he was absolutely wonderful. He ignored the convention volunteers and simply walked off the stage, wandering through the audience taking questions and spinning stories (he even played the spoons when a lady from Perth gifted some to him). His responses were sharp, honest and damn funny.
He talked about his time on Doctor Who (someone above mentioned how he wanted to do a fourth season and he spoke specifically on that), The Hobbit, The Five-ish Doctors, Sens8 and the various other projects he has coming up (The Joke, Strangeness in Space, Big Finish, etc).

[Baseman]

Immortal in that if she never returns and doesn't mind time and reality itself fracturing, sure. But she has to return, so what type of immortality is that? We just don't know when she'll return but she has to, from our perspective it may have already happened. "Centuries" is conjecture. But fine, it's happy in your opinion. Its not in mine. And I'm glad Bill got the last laugh so to speak to the chagrin everyone who inexplicably disliked her with an odd passion.

The type were you get to fly about space and time until you chose when you've had enough.Something that a lot people don't get to to And saying that may have already happened is just as conjectural.


I don't think its happy ending ethier.Its...middle of the road.

[Jokerz79]

Amy and Rory's fates weren't sad, they got exactly what they wanted - to live a long and happy life together. The only perspective from which it was sad was the Doctor's.
Clara is effectively immortal with all of time and space to explore at her leisure. Her ending is no more sad than a normal person's life, as we are all destined to die at some point or another. The only difference with her is she gets to choose when that time is. Sad? Not by a long stretch.

Who else was there?

P.S. made Amy and Rory's ending sad to me because of Brian also I would assume Amy's parents miss her.

[Matt]

Which brings me back to a position I've long had - Rory's Father would make an excellent companion.
I love that scene where he's sitting in the open TARDIS doors, watching the Earth below.

[Qwerty]

Which brings me back to a position I've long had - Rory's Father would make an excellent companion.
I love that scene where he's sitting in the open TARDIS doors, watching the Earth below.

Wilf and Brian together with capaldi would have been great.

[protege]

All of the companions under Moffat has met sad fates except Bill, so I'm glad it turned out the way it did. And before anyone mentions Clara, why is it always omitted she has to return to her death which is a fixed point or else time itself will fracture? Whoopty doo she left in a Tardis with Me, she still has to return to that point. That's...not happy. Bill's fate is actually like having one's cake and eating it too: the audience knows she's alive, but the Doctor doesn't.

That's another thing that bothers me about moffat and the companions; twice in a row now, the companion has either met a sad fate, or found a strange loophole out of it, and either way, the doctor doesn't know it. He totally forgot about clara, due to her being so clever, and now, on the verge of regenerating, he doesn't know that bill was rescued from her cyber existance. Unless this particular plotline is tied up in the christmas specail, i wonder if the doctor is going to remember bill after he regenerates.

[protege]

Well, Hartnell didn't want to leave the role. He was forced to leave due to his ailing health. Troughton leaving was a combination of factors - the arduous filming schedule where Doctor Who was produced year round and his agent was in his ear telling him to move on and do films. Pertwee did 5 years. Many attribute his leaving to the fact Katy Manning had departed the year before, Delgado's untimely death, and the team of Letts and Dicks were moving. However he was prepared to do a sixth year. He just tried to negotiate a pay increase. The BBC turned him down, so he left.

Tom is a weird case. At the time, he would have continued on in the role and done an eighth season. However, he clashed with incoming producer JNT. Tom had star power at that point and was a bit naughty on set. He would frequently burst into the rehearsal room and toss scripts around while deeming them to be, well, a load of ****. Plus he had the tendency to ad lib his lines in the script. Something that caused confusion among other actors in the scene. Hinchcliffe reined him in. Williams was intimidated by him at points (the nice guy producer who tried to keep everyone happy) and JNT was determined to leave his stamp on the show and bring it kicking and screaming into the 80’s. He wasn’t prepared to give into Tom (plus he wanted someone new in the role). So Tom left.

Now Tom admits he probably stayed one season too many.

Davison wasn't given enough quality scripts. He had made the decision to leave after the second season (the 20th anniversary year). Plus an encounter with Pat Troughton in the BBC car park during filming of The Five Doctors (where he famously imparted the advice of doing three years and getting out) had convinced him to bow out. Then the scripts came in for his third season and Davison was finally getting the quality he wanted. He was enjoying it so much he approached JNT and said that he would stay on for another year. By that time Colin had already been approached and accepted the role. Davison has admitted in interviews that if his second season had been his third, he would have stayed for a fourth.

Colin wanted to do eight years. Grade obviously had different ideas.

McCoy had intended to do three years. But he had been persuaded to do a fourth and had committed to doing it (it was going to be his last year). Sadly the show got canceled before it could come to fruition.

The poor reception of the TV movie stateside nixed any plans for follow up series. The BBC was only interested so long as Fox ponied up most of the production money (despite the TV movie being a ratings smash in Britain and proving that Doctor Who still had legs with audiences.)

It has been suggested Eccleston only agreed to do the show under the presumption it was for one season only. However, that wasn't the case. Eccleston WAS open to doing more. He just didn't agree with how the production was being run. Plus he also clashed with Joe Ahearne on set. It is telling that neither bloke has been back since.

Tennant almost stayed for a fourth season back in 2010 (the whole season would have dealt with his regeneration). However he decided to leave along with RTD to give Moffat a clean slate.

Smith left at the last minute. Season 8 had been planned and written with the notion he was going to star. Which is why Capaldi's Doctor didn't have a clear personality. He inherited scripts and a companion meant for Smith (Smith was set to do five years). Now Smith agrees he was a bit hasty and regrets not staying on.

I think tennant's regeneration year would have annoyed me, because i quickly lost interest when jenna coleman's extra year was just geared up for her exit.

[Somecrazyaussie]

One big problem with DOCTOR WHO--and I've noticed this with the First Doctor, too, so it's always been a problem--is that the Doctor leaves behind his TARDIS and then he's stuck for the rest of the story because he can't use it. Sure, the Cybermen would've evolved downstairs by the time he got to his TARDIS upstairs, but once in the TARDIS he can travel to any point in time. And the TARDIS is huge--maybe the size of a large planet--so he can save as many people as he needs to.

We've also seen that the Doctor can summon the TARDIS to him and that it can materialize around him. In fact, with some care and attention, the Doctor should never get himself into these sticky situations. Or at the very least, he should learn from his mistakes and take more precautions in the next story so he doesn't get stuck without the TARDIS. Actually, he should just shrink it to cuff-link size and take it with him wherever he goes and then make it police box size when he needs it to be.

I know this will never happen, because they need the Doctor to be stupid for these plots to happen. But he's really very stupid sometimes.

The Tardis isn't really the issue. The original brief for it outlined that its sole purpose was to take the regulars from adventure to adventure. I love the story's where it is rendered inoperable or ends up becoming unreachable for whatever reason (good example is The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit). Not every adventure needs to have some grand plan behind it. The Doctor and his companion/s ends up somewhere. Then the **** hits the fan because either the Doctor's curiosity, his companions, or both, get them into trouble. Maybe something happens to the Tardis. The rest of the adventure is them trying to get themselves out of trouble. Righting whatever wrongs in the process.

My major beef with new Who is the overuse of the bloody sonic screwdriver. The thing is basically a magic wand. Its like a Deus Ex Machina in a pocket for the writers. Oh, we seem to have written the Doctor into a tight spot. How ever do we get him out of it? Oh, he can just use the sonic screwdriver. Its lazy writing. I think JNT had the right idea in the 80’s. It really needs to be toned down. Have it perform the features it was created for. It has become a bit of a joke at this point.

Now that Moffat is on his way out, can we also tone down on people constantly saying, "Doctor? Doctor Who?" Or any other variation thereof? I'm a lifelong fan and every time it happens on screen i just roll my eyes. I can understand companions doing it upon first meeting him, but in recent years it has become as subtle as a slap in the face with a wet fish, or a hammer over the head.

I sincerely hope Chibnall brings some tension and danger back into the show during his tenure. We all know the Doctor will come out on top (except for regeneration stories), but it might do some good to really put the companions through the wringer. We we are lead to believe there is a good chance they might not get out alive. Traveling with the Doctor is fun. Yet there is a downside with all the danger he faces.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I think tennant's regeneration year would have annoyed me, because i quickly lost interest when jenna coleman's extra year was just geared up for her exit.

Moffat explained the general set up. The first episode would have opened the same as The Eleventh Hour. The Tardis would have crashed into Amy's back shed. However, it would have seen the Tenth Doctor staggering out. Mortally wound. The regeneration process about to start. The cloister bells in the Tardis would be ringing out. The Tenth Doctor darts back inside and the Tardis dematerializes. Only to reappear seconds later and Tenth Doctor steps out to greet Amy. Except he is younger and healthier. She has already met him, but from his perspective it would be his first time meeting her.

The whole season would have lead up to the events of his regeneration. Amy would have been torn about telling the Doctor about her first meeting with him and the fact he was dying. In the end it would have been the same as End Of Time. The Doctor trying to avoid his regeneration, only to fail since his death is a fixed point and inescapable. I think the big reveal would have been the Tenth Doctor was trying to give her a message for his younger self, only for him to fail. Amy would have inadvertently been the cause for his regeneration.

Now, obviously Moffat revisited this in a way with the whole Trenzalore bit. That was fixed. The Doctor was destined to die. It was only due to the intervention of The Time Lords he got out of it. Tennants Doctor wouldn't have been as lucky.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Wilf and Brian together with capaldi would have been great.

It is a travesty that Cribbins is apparently retired. I would pay through the nose for a series of audios with him and Tennant. Its a shame they never did anything with that. I loved the dynamic between him and Tennant. It totally turned the age old formula of an older Doctor and young companion on its head. It absolutely worked.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I think a better ending for Bill would have been an unhappy sacrifice based one, rather than a trope ridden happily-ever-after piece of Disney nonsense.
She finds the Doctor, who is unable to stand by this point, and protects him from Cyber blast after cyber blast. The Doctor uses the old key+sonic trick from Father's Day to summon the TARDIS, all the while Bill is fending off as much fire as she can (taking brutal punishment in the process) while the Doctor continues to get struck occasionally.
The TARDIS arrives a short distance away, the Doctor suffers a direct hit and more or less collapses as he triggers the level wide self destruct. Bill carries/drags the Doctor towards the TARDIS. The doors are locked. Bill whispers a plea and the doors open. She pushes the Doctor inside and, as her cyber form gives out, mumbles "I waited."

Boom.

The TARDIS then does what it has done before and aids the regeneration process. The Doctor's resistance to change is based on his failure to save Bill.
No need for Magic Future Oil that seems superior to even Time Lord tech.

Missy remembers to carry a spare dematerialisation circuit but not shooting his/her future self? That's a fairly big loophole for future Master appearances.

Interesting. I feel it would have held more weight if Bill harboured resentment at the Doctor for not being able to rescue her. Only for her to sacrifice herself for him at the last moment. Plus, after failing to appeal to The Master/Missy, it also would have tied into the conversation Bill had with the Doctor about his true friends being Nardole and herself.

I also reckon we should have had The Master turn on Missy first in order to go back and finish the Doctor off. Only for her to fatally injure him as well. It would have shown that what the Doctor said did reach her. It would have been poignant. A selfless act that no one would know she made. The Doctor would believe she left him in the lurch, when in fact she didn't. Killing herself to save him.

[Enigma]

Regarding Missy and memories, didn't The Masters specifically mention that it is because of their time streams crossing, during the episode?

[Somecrazyaussie]

Regarding Missy and memories, didn't The Masters specifically mention that it is because of their time streams crossing, during the episode?

It might have been. I have yet to watch it a second time. The incidental music was really shocking this episode. Chunks of Capaldi's dialogue during the scene where the Doctor was blowing up the Cybermen was completely drowned out on my end. I'll check it out. You may well be right, though.

Simms Master was surprised Missy didn't remember him. However i am sure he would know such a thing occurs when incarnations meet. The Master is batshit crazy at times, but he isn't an idiot. The Master has always been quick on the uptake. His ego is what brings him down.

If it wasn’t mentioned, it can always be explained away later. I am pretty sure others are correct on this thread. The reason we didn't see Simm regenerate is because wriggle room was worked in so he can be brought back later by other showrunners. If The Master comes back, it will be an unseen incarnation between Simm and Missy. She never actually states she regenerated from his incarnation, and he wouldn't know either way. Heck, maybe there is numerous incarnations between the two and knowledge of this encounter was forgotten over time?

Say what you will about Moffat, the guy is courteous by leaving gaps in his run (usually for the benefit of Big Finish further down the line.)

[Matt]

Regarding Missy and memories, didn't The Masters specifically mention that it is because of their time streams crossing, during the episode?

Yes, much as how the 5th Doctor wouldn't remember meeting the 10th in Time Crash. And how the 10th, 11th and War Doctors don't remember their meeting.
However, Missy did remember SOME things - such as a crazy woman shoving her past self against a wall and demanding he always carried a spare dematerialisation circuit.

Honestly, being stabbed by and then shooting one own future self would be more memorable than that.