Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Cyke]

I would not mind seeing a rather dashing, smooth Master/Missy with a foil for fencing once again.

P.S. Agreed on the Master in Spyfall. The Master's always been the best schemer around, but to add the spy lens to it was a rather inspired take. But then again, that does mean a slower, more calculated, more deliberate Master.

I really enjoy Dhawan in the role, but it doesn't mean the role can't change in personality. After all, almost every incarnation of the Doctor didn't really get their unique personality cemented until a few episodes in. I'd be happy to chalk up his performance in TTC as just some sort of growing pain; even Simm's Master is different in some ways between the 10th and 12th Doctors.

[ZeroBG82]

I meant that they both used the Joker for inspiration.

Except I didn't get that vibe from Simm at all. He was manic, and clearly not well, but in a much more directed fashion. Even his mania was organized (the drums). Dhawan is channeling much more of the freewheeling, unhinged mania that I expect from Joker. Anything could set this guy off. He's a planner, but the slightest provocation could see him throw out his whole plan because something shiny caught his eye and he wants to hurt it. It's one of the reasons I prefer the Simm Master. He feels like a guy who is made MORE dangerous because of his madness, not somebody who is dangerous because he's mad.

But that's a personal read, and I don't expect anyone else to share it.

Missy was much more my speed. Calculating, mischievous, but always able to shift to venom and menace at a moment's notice. And her arc with the Doctor was just really satisfying and played up the friendship that the two supposedly had long ago, which is more fun than the ancient rival and enemy schtick that they've gone back to now. Gomez really nailed the role, walking the fine line between malice and mercy. This is such an unfortunate (though perhaps inevitable) step back.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Except I didn't get that vibe from Simm at all. He was manic, and clearly not well, but in a much more directed fashion. Even his mania was organized (the drums). Dhawan is channeling much more of the freewheeling, unhinged mania that I expect from Joker. Anything could set this guy off. He's a planner, but the slightest provocation could see him throw out his whole plan because something shiny caught his eye and he wants to hurt it. It's one of the reasons I prefer the Simm Master. He feels like a guy who is made MORE dangerous because of his madness, not somebody who is dangerous because he's mad.

But that's a personal read, and I don't expect anyone else to share it.

Simm was more subtle about it, but it was there. Dhawan is fully embracing it every second on screen.

Missy was much more my speed. Calculating, mischievous, but always able to shift to venom and menace at a moment's notice. And her arc with the Doctor was just really satisfying and played up the friendship that the two supposedly had long ago, which is more fun than the ancient rival and enemy schtick that they've gone back to now. Gomez really nailed the role, walking the fine line between malice and mercy. This is such an unfortunate (though perhaps inevitable) step back.

Psychotic Mary Poppins is a winning concept. Gomez performance was on another level, as well.

[Celgress]

The bar may be, as you say, set low but I think he's referring more to narrative messes, rather than quality of stories...

This is true, sadly.

[ChrisIII]

I would not mind seeing a rather dashing, smooth Master/Missy with a foil for fencing once again.

P.S. Agreed on the Master in Spyfall. The Master's always been the best schemer around, but to add the spy lens to it was a rather inspired take. But then again, that does mean a slower, more calculated, more deliberate Master.

I really enjoy Dhawan in the role, but it doesn't mean the role can't change in personality. After all, almost every incarnation of the Doctor didn't really get their unique personality cemented until a few episodes in. I'd be happy to chalk up his performance in TTC as just some sort of growing pain; even Simm's Master is different in some ways between the 10th and 12th Doctors.

It seems a bit unclear but I think the episode implied that the Master had the "O" disguise for a few years, much like presumably the Saxon identity had been around for a while (Although in both cases he had access to a TARDIS so there's a little wiggle room there). There's also the Doctor saying she had met O years ago (possibly in another incarnation), although that's when the Master takes out the real O, although he said that's before he was at MI6 so the Doctor probably met Master O.

[Indian Ink]

Someone asked me how did the randomly locational destination portal just happen to open on to Gallifrey of all the billions of other planets in the universe when the Gallifreyan Doctor stepped up to it, and that also the Master just happened to be on the other side of? Was the Master in charge of the portal, and did he state that he was?

I couldn't remember the Master mentioning that it was under his control, but I'm unsure. Did anyone notice this occurring or is it another plot hole?

[ChrisIII]

Yeah the portal thing was kind of dropped. Were the other humans going to Gallifrey or did the destination change? Did the Master perhaps kill them too? You'd figure the time lords would kind of notice something like that. There also seemed to be a bit of some discontinuity there-The Master in Spyfall seemed to state that Gallifrey was still in a "bubble universe" the Doctors put it in from DAY OF THE DOCTOR, but Hell Bent seemed to have Gallifrey back in our universe, but close to the end of time. Maybe they got put back in the bubble after the Doctor's actions. (Also makes you wonder, can Clara still put herself back in her moment of death, or has that been destroyed? Does it even matter with the Time Lords dead again anyway?)


Then again the other last humans we saw thought that Utopia was going to be a nice place too....

[Cyke]

It seems a bit unclear but I think the episode implied that the Master had the "O" disguise for a few years, much like presumably the Saxon identity had been around for a while (Although in both cases he had access to a TARDIS so there's a little wiggle room there). There's also the Doctor saying she had met O years ago (possibly in another incarnation), although that's when the Master takes out the real O, although he said that's before he was at MI6 so the Doctor probably met Master O.

I'm approaching it the way Nine was approached, I guess. Even though "Rose" implied that the Doctor recently regenerated into Eccleston, bits of dialogue in his season also implied it had been some time, and RTD wrote him under the general impression that Nine was the one who fought in the Time War. Moffat's the one who solidified that the Doctor regenerated into Nine right after the war (and it didn't contradict anything in canon), it's just that determining how long Nine was the Doctor wasn't really one of RTD's priorities (nor should it have been, necessarily).

So then from a meta sense, I'm ok with an actor trying to hammer out the feel of their Time Lord character over the course of several episodes IRL, even if in story it's as much as hundreds of years of existence. I'd rather have a confused Time Lord eventually hammer out their personality for writers and actors to have a better grasp of the character down the line rather than having them be the same personality if it's a bad one.

(I'm also a fan of Picard for the same reason. Only thanks to revision had he been a curmudgeon for half his career from Starfleet to the 1st two years on the E-D, and then becoming the paternal, wise man of exploration for the second half from Season 3 to the movies to now, all because Stewart and the writers eventually figured him out).

[Steel Inquisitor]

The Doctor was so uncharacteristically passive and helpless in this episode. That never happens when the Doctor was a man.

[Somecrazyaussie]

The Doctor was so uncharacteristically passive and helpless in this episode. That never happens when the Doctor was a man.

Jodie's Doctor has been like that since her introduction. I think they wanted to make her more fallible as opposed to how he was during Smith's and Capaldi's tenure (similar to the transition from Tom to Peter and Peter to Colin). I can understand it from a narrative standpoint as it raises the stakes.

The trouble is, they've gone too far in the opposite direction.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Yeah the portal thing was kind of dropped. Were the other humans going to Gallifrey or did the destination change? Did the Master perhaps kill them too? You'd figure the time lords would kind of notice something like that. There also seemed to be a bit of some discontinuity there-The Master in Spyfall seemed to state that Gallifrey was still in a "bubble universe" the Doctors put it in from DAY OF THE DOCTOR, but Hell Bent seemed to have Gallifrey back in our universe, but close to the end of time. Maybe they got put back in the bubble after the Doctor's actions. (Also makes you wonder, can Clara still put herself back in her moment of death, or has that been destroyed? Does it even matter with the Time Lords dead again anyway?)


Then again the other last humans we saw thought that Utopia was going to be a nice place too....

Ko Sharmus pretty much implied that it was Gallifrey those people had been sent to. Plus, he said he was the one who sent the Cyberium backwards through time.

Gallifrey is pretty much like The Vanishing Point at DC. I think they found their way back into our universe, but are a second or so out of phase with current time. Suspended right at the end of time.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Someone asked me how did the randomly locational destination portal just happen to open on to Gallifrey of all the billions of other planets in the universe when the Gallifreyan Doctor stepped up to it, and that also the Master just happened to be on the other side of? Was the Master in charge of the portal, and did he state that he was?

I couldn't remember the Master mentioning that it was under his control, but I'm unsure. Did anyone notice this occurring or is it another plot hole?

Why did it open on Gallifrey? Apart from serving the plot? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if The Master was behind it.

[ChrisIII]

The Doctor was so uncharacteristically passive and helpless in this episode. That never happens when the Doctor was a man.

There's a lot of classic episodes where the Doctor does wind up incarcerated for a good chunk of the episode. "Caves of Androzani" I think is a good example-a lot of the plot happens regardless of the Doctor's actions (although his sudden reappearance later on as Stotz's prisoner sends Morgus's paranoia into overdrive), as his only priority really is to get himself and Peri safe.

He also spent a good chunk of Last of The Timelords in a helpless state until the end, although it was sort of "planned all along".


I recall Frontier In Space also had the Doctor in prison cells a lot too.

[ChrisIII]

One thing I'm kind of curious about as well-did the TARDIS have it's memory wiped too? When it becomes a human (or whatever Idris originally was) in "Doctor's wife", it recognizes him mostly as "thief" which fits with it's original "origin" story.


Perhaps the Time Lords erased it's memory and form to a default version but later after it was stolen on an instinctual level it eventually wound up becoming a police box again.

Or Hartnell's stolen TARDIS is an entirely different one from Ruth's, but Hartnell's Doctor also instinctively changed it back into a police box for some reason. We've seen at least one other TARDIS use the police box disguise-The Master's in Logopolis (Which the Doctor unwittingly took aboard as he was trying to find a real Police box, causing a weird dimensional glitch).

[Matt]

Which, of course, was part of the Master's plan all along. He wanted his TARDIS on board the Doctors. It was a deliberate act.

Getting back on track, 13th's general helplessness really does not help to sell this incarnation. Yes, the 5th had a similar philosophy but that wasn't one of his strong suits - his compassion and humility were. That and, when the chips were down, he could get worked up and get done what needed to be done. 5 also didn't babble to himself a great deal, a trait which does little but demonstrate how clueless 13 is a lot of the time, the madly trying to put pieces together instead of calmly/confidently working the problem, or having an actual plan in motion.

1 - The original, didn't even have two hearts, the beginner. Physically frail but still a force to be reckoned with. Had the ability to cut down people just with a stare and words.
2 - The background schemer, standing at the back pushing the right people to do the right thing. Used his hobo/clownish appearance to make people underestimate him.
3 - The eccentric scientist. Logic and reason used to control any situation as soon as possible. Passionate about humanitarian causes such as the environment.
4 - Larger than life, oozed confidence in almost every situation. Even when Gallifrey was actually invaded, it was all part of a larger plan.
5 - The humanitarian, the compassionate one. Not as much control and confidence as the rest but his humility and appeals to the best part of people were great traits.
6 - ROUGH start. Emotional instability turned into raging arrogance, but by the end he could walk into almost any situation and have control. Especially in the Big Finish stories (where 6 really does shine).
7 - The master manipulator. The schemer. Plans within plans within plans. 7 held that sacrifices sometimes had to be made for the greater good. Definite convictions and stood his ground for all of them.
And so on.

13 just doesn't seem to have the control or confidence of earlier incarnations. The way that The Timeless Child just makes the Doctor a victim is just thematically wrong somehow. That just seems to shine through with 13 as well, she doesn't pop through the universe standing up for what's right like the others, she seems to simply amble and stumble her way through situations.