Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Somecrazyaussie]

I'd say there's still an element of mystery there, we don't know exactly where the Timeless child came from in the first place, although it's implied to be another universe. Also her native species; do they all regenerate and are therefore more 'natural' time lords perhaps? Was that even her first life etc?

Oh I bet the species will be human. Hence why the Doctor has such a affinity for all things Earth. Be some deep seated race memory. Sent back at the end of their universe/timeline to change the past. I wouldn't rule Chibs out from pulling that stunt.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Tom's Doctor was around so long, Tom's approach kind of depended on his producers/script editors. While he of course did have his comic moments, in his earlier seasons he's generally more aloof and serious. It's in part I think because a lot of his stuff is based on horror films, so naturally there was a bit of a darker tone.

However this actually proved fairly controversial at the time, especially since the show is often marketed towards kids. So midway through that they went for a lighter tone, especially with season 17 which kind of went almost all camp.

Tom's final season is when things got serious again pretty much, although instead of horror (although the E-space trilogy still had horror elements esp. State of Decay) they tried for a more serious sci-fi approach which sort of carried on to Davison.


Troughton's episodes have unfortunately mostly been lost, this is true of many of Hartnells as well, and even some of Pertwees are only available in black and white or with some quality issues. I'm not an expert on the British TV model, but as I understand it, at least back then a lot of the shows were only meant to be seen once and didn't have as many 'reruns', so a lot of episodes were disposed of (Doctor Who is not the only victim).

Some have been recovered though, often by using broadcasts sold to other countries or territories-"Tomb of the Cybermen" for example was found in Hong Kong. Also some episodes that have only the audio tracks remaining have had some new animations made.


I think Troughton's final season is the most intact, but it's also probably his weakest IMO, although Mind Robber, Invasion and War Games are pretty good. Seeds of Death has some very cool directing and cinematography but kind of drags a lot.

Tom worked best with Holmes and Hinchcliffe. He has stated numerous times that is the period of his tenure he enjoyed the most. Purely because he loved the types of stories being told and how well written they were. His period under Willaims is pretty much him being bored of the material he had to work with and he was ad-libbing left and right. The last year I think he was in too minds - he didn't really want to be there anymore, but he was also hurt because they basically told him, "if you want to leave, leave." Prior to that everyone was like, "oh no, Tom, you can't leave. Stay one more year." Personally, he wanted the show to go back to how it was under Holmes and Hinchliffe.

Troughtons Doctor was the most well rounded. I mean, the man was a incredible actor with immense range. Which is why it is great Enemy was recovered as his triple role in that - The Doctor, Salamander, The Doctor imitating Salamander was breathtaking. His Doctor was mysterious, mischievous, authoritarian at times, sarcastic in others. Tomb was another great display of his talents whereby his Doctor subtly manipulates everyone there, yet they treat him like a idiot. Shame most of his work has been lost.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Doctor Who's current issues stem mostly from having a terrible overseer who feels pushing agendas for the sake of agendas and courting controversy via continuity breaking, and also increasing the political and messaging in the show. Doctor Who has always been able to say things about politics and climate change, but now the current overseer elects to knock people over the head with it. The tragedy is that Jodie herself is a great Doctor... she's just sandbagged with a bad overseer. And for every quality episode (including Rosa which did a fantastic job of saying its message without being so preachy about it) there's a terrible one like Orphan 55 or an episode like Arachnids In The UK which is a decent script let down by a Trump clone which the show is using to say how bad Trump is. Yes BBC, we get it.

There's also smaller issues like the quality of writing from some guest episode writers and the lack of character development for the companions, but that's probably the biggest reason why Doctor Who has lost some fans. The fact that Jodie is leaving and yet Chris is staying on will not bring them back since they know the quality is unlikely to improve once she departs, whoever replaces her.

Agreed.

The show has always addressed social and political issues, but did so in a intelligent manner. The Sunmakers is Bob Holmes giving a middle finger to the tax man, but it doesn't hit you over the head with it. It says it without saying it.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Old Who was nowhere near as good as New Who. And you know, I don't think the series was being preachy. Talking about something isn't automatically preachy, ok

Old Who often had better scripts, better composers, seasoned actors as well. New who is better in terms of production and special effects. But the scripts are often lacking with characters who don't get developed properly due to lack of running times.

Take Talons for example. RTD remarked that was pitch perfect writing and that Holmes delivered a script on par with, if not better than, Dennis Potter. If RTD is staying that, about a show made 40 plus years ago, you know they were doing something right.

[Somecrazyaussie]

https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/it-...-of-the-hodiac

Big Finish is adapting a Russell T. Davies script for the 6th Doctor.

Interesting how he will handle that one because, as he said, it was originally a 1x 60 minute episode outline. So it has to have been developed into a 2 x 60 minute format. Either way, it should be interesting. I know he said he had proposals for 7th, but had no idea he had some tucked away for Old Sixie.

[ChrisIII]

Oh I bet the species will be human. Hence why the Doctor has such a affinity for all things Earth. Be some deep seated race memory. Sent back at the end of their universe/timeline to change the past. I wouldn't rule Chibs out from pulling that stunt.

An alternate Earth perhaps-Even weirder it could be the Cybus Earth, with the Doctor somehow being connected to Rose and his clone? Just kind of joking a bit, but RED DWARF pretty much pulled off a similar twist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros_(Red_Dwarf)

[KC]

I find Classic Who to be slow and meandering. I think the characters from New Who have been developed extremely well and the writers manged to do it while delivering better paced and more satisfying television. I struggle to rewatch Classic Who serials after I have watched them once but I have rewatched most of the new Who several times.

[Panic]

I struggle to rewatch Classic Who serials after I have watched them once but I have rewatched most of the new Who several times.

The opposite for me: I have between 40 to 50 Classic Who DVDs which I can rewatch again and again, whilst I find most NuWho stories range from okay-ish to making me want to throw things at the screen even on first watch, and most I would not willingly watch again; I've got three NuWho DVDs, as there are stories I think are excellent, it's just that generally I don't like NuWho. I agree about Classic Who's pacing though - it was never meant to be watched all in one go. I can watch stories like that now that I'm so familiar with them, but on first watch it's tough going even for the great stories.

[CosmiComic]

The opposite for me: I have between 40 to 50 Classic Who DVDs which I can rewatch again and again, whilst I find most NuWho stories range from okay-ish to making me want to throw things at the screen even on first watch, and most I would not willingly watch again; I've got three NuWho DVDs, as there are stories I think are excellent, it's just that generally I don't like NuWho. I agree about Classic Who's pacing though - it was never meant to be watched all in one go. I can watch stories like that now that I'm so familiar with them, but on first watch it's tough going even for the great stories.

I find old Who a bit too cheap and stretched out. Overall I think NuWho is far superior

And the old companions sucked IMO

[Somecrazyaussie]

I find old Who a bit too cheap and stretched out. Overall I think NuWho is far superior

And the old companions sucked IMO

The show wasn't given a lot of money. In the 60s it had 1.200 - 1.400£ to work with. Out of that you had to pay the principal cast, the supporting actors, the production team etc. At the time they had the Console room set, the main set (where a lot of the action took place) and enough for 1 - 2 corridors which were often redressed from different angles. It was atmospheric and looked good until the late 70s post Star Wars. Where classic Who comes undone in this regard is the 80s where JNT insisted everything had to be filmed under bright lighting. This, of course, eradicated contrasting shows and really let's down productions such as Warriors of The Deep

The older companions sucked? Which ones? Ace certainly didn't and bashed the crap out of a Dalek with a baseball bat and set the template for the modern companions in terms of character development. Leela is another who fought opponents and killed a couple with her Janice Thorns. Which is why when Jodie Whittaker was announced as the Doctor I had arguments with a few who said, "finally! Now the show is going to have a strong female in its entire history". Which is bullshit because the show has had them plenty.

[CosmiComic]

The show wasn't given a lot of money. In the 60s it had 1.200 - 1.400£ to work with. Out of that you had to pay the principal cast, the supporting actors, the production team etc. At the time they had the Console room set, the main set (where a lot of the action took place) and enough for 1 - 2 corridors which were often redressed from different angles. It was atmospheric and looked good until the late 70s post Star Wars. Where classic Who comes undone in this regard is the 80s where JNT insisted everything had to be filmed under bright lighting. This, of course, eradicated contrasting shows and really let's down productions such as Warriors of The Deep

The older companions sucked? Which ones? Ace certainly didn't and bashed the crap out of a Dalek with a baseball bat and set the template for the modern companions in terms of character development. Leela is another who fought opponents and killed a couple with her Janice Thorns. Which is why when Jodie Whittaker was announced as the Doctor I had arguments with a few who said, "finally! Now the show is going to have a strong female in its entire history". Which is bullshit because the show has had them plenty.

Yeah but they didn't have a female lead.

I don't think the old companions were especially memorable tbh. The new ones all have interesting personalities

[Somecrazyaussie]

The opposite for me: I have between 40 to 50 Classic Who DVDs which I can rewatch again and again, whilst I find most NuWho stories range from okay-ish to making me want to throw things at the screen even on first watch, and most I would not willingly watch again; I've got three NuWho DVDs, as there are stories I think are excellent, it's just that generally I don't like NuWho. I agree about Classic Who's pacing though - it was never meant to be watched all in one go. I can watch stories like that now that I'm so familiar with them, but on first watch it's tough going even for the great stories.

Agreed. I think the sweet spot for old Who was 4x 25 minute episodes where the structure was - 1. Introduced everyone, establish the setting and obstacle like villains etc, 2. Further development/run around, 3. Complications arise and the protagonists are on the ropes, 4. Protagonists stage a comeback, villain is beaten and the Tardis crew departs for new adventures.

6 x 25 minutes followed the same structure, but the end of Part 4 often resulted in a secondary antagonist being introduced after the defeat of the supposed main antagonist (Cheng and Mr Sin for 4 and Magnus Greel for the last 2 etc).

8 or more part serials were incredibly hard to write for and very rarely did the production team pull it off. The Invasion is a great story, but Uncle Terrence had it right when he said it was far too long and would have made a good 6 parter or a cracking 4 parter.

I prefer Old Who because we spent more time in the setting of a story and it allowed for significant world building. Plus characters were fleshed out more. New Who has pulled it off, but that is why so much of it is forgettable because we are immediately thrown into the action and it never let's up due to the run time. It is go, go, go. I do feel RTD was the better out of the modern showrunners at striking a balance between action and character development though.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Double post

[CosmiComic]

I've had my qualms about recent seasons but Old who was way too stretched out. I liked Baker but the plots weren't as tight for me. Still i respect its influence and legacy

[KC]

I prefer Old Who because we spent more time in the setting of a story and it allowed for significant world building. Plus characters were fleshed out more. New Who has pulled it off, but that is why so much of it is forgettable because we are immediately thrown into the action and it never let's up due to the run time. It is go, go, go. I do feel RTD was the better out of the modern showrunners at striking a balance between action and character development though.

The problem with this for me is Classic Who spends so much time in the setting and world-building that it can drag out the story to the point were episodes drag and become boring.

I feel like New Who is better balanced in this way we get world-building and characters in the stories are fleshed out really well but it isn't extended to the point where it gets a bit dull. Honestly, I find episodes of Classic Who to be way more forgettable than New Who. New Who is faster paced but I don't think most episodes blaze past in a way where I don't remember what happened to them