Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[CosmiComic]

The problem with this for me is Classic Who spends so much time in the setting and world-building that it can drag out the story to the point were episodes drag and become boring.

I feel like New Who is better balanced in this way we get world-building and characters in the stories are fleshed out really well but it isn't extended to the point where it gets a bit dull. Honestly, I find episodes of Classic Who to be way more forgettable than New Who. New Who is faster paced but I don't think most episodes blaze past in a way where I don't remember what happened to them

I'm kinda where you are

[ChrisIII]

Original WHO did experiment with the 45 minute format during the later Peter Davison era and first Colin Baker season, although the stories were all 2 parters with one three parter (The Two Doctors).

It wasn't really much of a success, although part of that might've been due to the Sixth Doctor himself, and the first season was more or less going overboard with the continuity references, with a few exceptions (Vengeance on Varos mostly) For example "Attack of the Cybermen" in particular tried to be a sequel to almost every Cybermen story up to that point, *and* Ressurection of the Daleks (with Lytton) to boot.

[BeastieRunner]

NuWho over Classic Who for me on the tele but Classic Who Doctors over New Doctors for radio serials!

[Somecrazyaussie]

Original WHO did experiment with the 45 minute format during the later Peter Davison era and first Colin Baker season, although the stories were all 2 parters with one three parter (The Two Doctors).

It wasn't really much of a success, although part of that might've been due to the Sixth Doctor himself, and the first season was more or less going overboard with the continuity references, with a few exceptions (Vengeance on Varos mostly) For example "Attack of the Cybermen" in particular tried to be a sequel to almost every Cybermen story up to that point, *and* Ressurection of the Daleks (with Lytton) to boot.

Lytton appeared in Resurrection first during Davison's last season (which DID air as 2× 45 minutes episodes and gave them the idea to switch to that format the following season). He cropped up again later on in Attack.

I think the 45 minute episodes did work. The problem was with the stories themselves. As you pointed out, Who by this point was so far up its own arse with continuity references that it began to alienate the broader public. Imagine being a casual viewer tuning in Saturday tea time to watch Attack Of The Cybermen whereby you have a passing familiarity with them by knowing them visually, only to watch a story which requires you to have knowledge of everything to feature them from Tenth Planet onwards to understand what the heck is going on. To be fair, Attack was written by committee - Ian Levine (major Who buff and was the unofficial continuity adviser at the time for the production team), Eric Saward, JNT tossed in his two cents, I think another writer even took a stab.

Another point is the fact the Sixie hadn't caught on with the public. Peter Davison was well known and he had played likeable characters up to that point (Tristan in ACGaS was a bit of a idiot at times) and that familiarity, as well as the vulnerability he had at the start of his tenure, allowed him to catch on despite having the arduous task of following up Tom. On the other hand Colin had played characters who were, to put it bluntly, total bastards. Plus Twin Dilemma was a absolute crapfest of a story in which a post-regenerative Doctor flew into fits of rage (to the point he throttled Peri) and melancholy didn't endear him to the public. Colin has stated that he initially had reservations about this (he wanted his Doctor to be slightly darker, authoritarian and akin to Hartnell by gradually have his Doctor soften over subsequent series) but JNT wanted a dangerous Doctor and everybody urged him to overplay it. The costume also didn't work (again, JNT).

Was Doctor Who perhaps becoming too violent? Perhaps, it did push the boundaries at the time. The excessive violence was used as a excuse to ditch it so the BBC could fund their morning breakfast show and EastEnders. It wasn't the sole reason. The creative decisions and the stories (apart from Two Doctors, Vengence on Varos and Revelation) were shockers.

I really think Davison should have had one more story between Planet of Fire and Caves of Androzani with Peri in order to cement the friendship between the two (which would have made the Doctor's sacrifice in Caves carry more weight) and for Colin to start fresh over the break with the next series. Then they might have had time to rethink things and allow the public to come around to the idea of a Sixth Doctor and build up the anticipation.

[Somecrazyaussie]

NuWho over Classic Who for me on the tele but Classic Who Doctors over New Doctors for radio serials!

The Old stuff probably goes over well with newer fans as they can just use the imagination and not have to worry about everything looking "cheap". New Who stuff might catch up, but Big Finish had 17 - 18 years to play around with Classic Who before being granted access to New Who. So they have it pretty much down pat.

[ChrisIII]

Some of the older serials do have some CG enhancements on their DVD/Blu-ray releases, although in most cases this is stuff like lasers, some ships, and in some cases redubbing ("Day of the Daleks" had somewhat deeper Dalek voices than usual, so the special edition redubbed it).

They did try somewhat to scale back Colin a bit in "Trial of a Time Lord", with the exception of the Trial scenes itself for the most part and Mindwarp. However, unlike the similar approach taken with Capaldi in season 9(and which kind of felt more organic IMO as he was going through a bit of an existential crisis in season 8 anyway) I don't think it quite worked.


Regarding the violence of course Tom's early stories got a lot of flack for it too. Some of McCoy's stories also came off as fairly violent too (Time and the Rani skelonizing a girl, Dragonfire with Kane's face melting, Ghost Light with Light dissecting the maid and reverting the constable to soup; A good chunk of Curse of Fenric and Survival) but I think by then it was well under the radar.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Regarding the violence of course Tom's early stories got a lot of flack for it too. Some of McCoy's stories also came off as fairly violent too (Time and the Rani skelonizing a girl, Dragonfire with Kane's face melting, Ghost Light with Light dissecting the maid and reverting the constable to soup; A good chunk of Curse of Fenric and Survival) but I think by then it was well under the radar.

Probably because everyone apart from die-hard fans had bailed on it by that point. Most of the people likely to kick up a stink about McCoy's stuff at the time were probably too busy watching Corrie to even notice. Wasn't Remembrance the first story to depict someone's skeleton when being hit by a Dalek too? Prior to that it was just a flash or they just used a negative effect. I guess you can toss that one in there.

When you look at the 80s as a whole, I think Who was just following the trend of the time. Plus people often forget Who was never a kids show. It was made by the serials department which was separate from it. I think Phillip Hinchliffe had the best approach to it in that he believed the main audience was early to mid teens. But that different age groups found something in the show that appealed to them - kids liked the monsters, dad's loved the assistants (Leela was a particular hit with them apparently lol), even Tom became a bit of a sex symbol to mum's at the time.

[KC]

even Tom became a bit of a sex symbol to mum's at the time.

Sex symbol...


I think the dad's needed to stop ogling the assistants and start focusing on their wives.

[CosmiComic]

Sex symbol...


I think the dad's needed to stop ogling the assistants and start focusing on their wives.

Yeah, not every popular character needs to be a sex symbol, no matter how much we like them!

Although I don't even get what sex symbol means tbh

[Somecrazyaussie]

Sex symbol...


I think the dad's needed to stop ogling the assistants and start focusing on their wives.

It was mentioned in one of the docos once. I found it hard to believe, but apparently some women tuned in to watch Doctor Who for Tom. According to a popular story, a woman even approached him once and flashed him wearing only a coat and a copy of the scarf.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Yeah, not every popular character needs to be a sex symbol, no matter how much we like them!

Although I don't even get what sex symbol means tbh

A sex symbol is someone who is known/noted for being attractive and deemed sexy. In relation to Tom it is used loosely. It is why I said "he became a bit of a sex symbol" because, apparently, Tom was found attractive by a segment of the female viewers watching the show when he was on it.

Totally wild, but it was apparently true lol.

[CosmiComic]

A sex symbol is someone who is known/noted for being attractive and deemed sexy. In relation to Tom it is used loosely. It is why I said "he became a bit of a sex symbol" because, apparently, Tom was found attractive by a segment of the female viewers watching the show when he was on it.

Totally wild, but it was apparently true lol.

I should explain myself. I know what it means, I just don't get the concept of "sexy"

But you're right, it is wild. It seems fame = beauty, even if that same person would be called plain or ugly if they were a "nobody"

[BeastieRunner]

Osgood is showing up in a lot of new stuff right now. Saw they're in a game now, too. Big Osgood story coming up?

[Somecrazyaussie]

I should explain myself. I know what it means, I just don't get the concept of "sexy"

But you're right, it is wild. It seems fame = beauty, even if that same person would be called plain or ugly if they were a "nobody"

I mean, I know Whovians my age (mid 30s) who think Tom was appealing. Probably his personality? Don't know. I do think he is charismatic. So that might be it.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Osgood is showing up in a lot of new stuff right now. Saw they're in a game now, too. Big Osgood story coming up?

Only thing I know is the upcoming Unit story from Big Finish. The first box set comes out later this year (Unit: Nemesis)