Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Vworp Vworp]

Okay, I'll tell you why I think it is a VERY BAD THING. Many long-term fans prefer a wandering vagabond who saw the suffering of the universe setting themselves apart from their kind rather than a special from the start Space Jesus trope (so damn lazy). I prefer characters who become great rather than those who are born great, the former tend to be more interesting and relatable.

Except that doesn't happen in the Timeless Child arc. At all.

Where in the arc does it suggests the Doctor is deified? Or has any kind of magical powers, other than a biological ability to regenerate? An ability, it should be pointed out, that leads to the Doctor's contribution to Time Lord society basically coming down to the child being a petri dish that Tecteun experimented on.

Further, as others have said, the Doctor's memory of everything before One's childhood was erased. So everything that happened after that event remains exactly as we (and the Doctor!) remember. I'm curious, where in your space jesus parallel, does the Timeless Child in any way diminish the actions of the First Doctor?

At the absolute worst, it maybe suggests that on a subconscious level, the Doctor's desire to do good simply couldn't be suppressed and so he stole a Tardis (unknowingly, and with a little help from Clara, his Tardis!) and went off to be that wandering vagabond. And if the worst thing about a story is that a character we know is a good person turned out to have been a good person before we knew them... That just doesn't scream super-controversial to me.

I mean, in a lot of ways, it kinda makes sense of the sometimes contradictory reasons Doctor Who lore has given for why the Doctor left Gallifrey over the years. Because originally, he didn't really know exactly why he left... Just that it was the right thing to do.

I'm genuinely curious, what do you actually mean by "space jesus", in real, tangible, terms? How does it change who the Doctor is and what they've done? Because honestly, when it comes to turning the Doctor into some magical, omnipotent, God-like figure, the Timeless Child arc has got nothing on most of RTD's run on the show.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I just would've preferred the Timeless Child and the Fugitive be seperate characters than the Doctor themselves.

Having the Fugitive be an older version of Susan is fanservice done better. It also gives Whitaker and Martin more of a clear dynamic to work with. It clears up some plot holes and is an easier sell to the audience. At their core, the Doctor is a uneasy parental figure and this is another way to explore that. Flux now becomes the ultimate bonding exercise. 13 reconnects with Susan and helps her settle a score from her Division days.

You could even leave Susan with Kavinesta, Vander and Bel as a spinoff tease. .

The Timeless Child should've just been a new companion that the Doctor seeks out to make amends with or to stop the Master from corrupting. If the Doctor has to team up with the Master to protect Timeless from Time Lord Society, all the more better.

It's new territory for Modern Who and easier to pitch a casual audience.

[ChrisIII]

Except that doesn't happen in the Timeless Child arc. At all.

Where in the arc does it suggests the Doctor is deified? Or has any kind of magical powers, other than a biological ability to regenerate? An ability, it should be pointed out, that leads to the Doctor's contribution to Time Lord society basically coming down to the child being a petri dish that Tecteun experimented on.

Further, as others have said, the Doctor's memory of everything before One's childhood was erased. So everything that happened after that event remains exactly as we (and the Doctor!) remember. I'm curious, where in your space jesus parallel, does the Timeless Child in any way diminish the actions of the First Doctor?

At the absolute worst, it maybe suggests that on a subconscious level, the Doctor's desire to do good simply couldn't be suppressed and so he stole a Tardis (unknowingly, and with a little help from Clara, his Tardis!) and went off to be that wandering vagabond. And if the worst thing about a story is that a character we know is a good person turned out to have been a good person before we knew them... That just doesn't scream super-controversial to me.

I mean, in a lot of ways, it kinda makes sense of the sometimes contradictory reasons Doctor Who lore has given for why the Doctor left Gallifrey over the years. Because originally, he didn't really know exactly why he left... Just that it was the right thing to do.

I'm genuinely curious, what do you actually mean by "space jesus", in real, tangible, terms? How does it change who the Doctor is and what they've done? Because honestly, when it comes to turning the Doctor into some magical, omnipotent, God-like figure, the Timeless Child arc has got nothing on most of RTD's run on the show.

I'm kind of curious how much the TARDIS itself 'remembers', or if it was wiped or sent back to factory default or whatever. Did it kind of choose it's old Police box form again when it wound back on Earth?

The Doctor does have a small residual memory of the Timeless Child (The couple of flashbacks, maybe the Morbius faces), sort of like how Smith & Ruth both seemed to have some aspect of the Doctor in them despite most of him and her being in the Watch. Kind of similar with Yana, who seemed to recognize the drums and a vague recognition of the TARDIS/Regeneration (Although strangely, not the Doctor). It's also possible the Seventh Doctor hints were part of the Pre-Hartnell past as well, as it turns out the Doctor did have a role in early Time Lord society.

Think it's also possible that the Woman in White from End of Time might've been a 'nicer' regeneration of Tectuen. Maybe Rassilon got her to see things his way.

[Vworp Vworp]

I'm kind of curious how much the TARDIS itself 'remembers', or if it was wiped or sent back to factory default or whatever. Did it kind of choose it's old Police box form again when it wound back on Earth?

Until something contradicts it, my theory is pretty much along those lines.

Certainly when it was first theorised that RuthDoc was a pre-Hartnell Doctor, one of the most common questions asked was "But why is her Tardis a Police Box, when it didn't get stuck like that until 1963?"

Or did it?

So here's RuthDoc zapping around time and space in her Tardis that looks like a Police Box. At some point in her future, she's either recaptured for whatever she'd been hiding about in Fugitive, or she (or an even later regeneration) eventually returns to Gallifrey. Either way, the end result is the big memory wipe and presumably the Tardis is returned to wherever old Tardis's are kept on Gallifrey. And we do know that the first Doctor's Tardis was old when he borrowed her.

So let's say she's been in storage all this time, awaiting repairs on her Chameleon Circuit. But it's hardly a rush job so she just sits there collecting dust and maybe the occasional technician does a little work on the Chameleon Circit when they have a slow day. Many years later, Doctor One is all growed up and has decided to sling his hook from Gallifrey. He sneaks into the Tardis storage facility and with a little nudge from a random young Time Lord named Claria, he ends up stealing what had previously been his own Tardis.

And for the first couple of trips, the repairs to the chameleon circuit work, changing into an "Ionic column and a sedan chair" (as mentioned by Susan in 'The Cave of Skulls'). But, just as was later the case when the Doctor attempted to repair the circuit in 'Attack of the Cybermen', she eventually defaults back to her 'preferred' shape of an old Earth 1960's British Police Box. And she does it when the Doctor and Susan arrive at Totter's Lane. Because, let's be honest here, a Police Box in a junk yard is an absolutely terrible disguise. Yeah, by coincidence, it's the right planet and the right era. But that's about as far as it goes. In a junk yard, there are almost any number of things the Tardis could have disguised herself as, which would not have attracted the slightest bit of attention.

But a Police Box? First of all, back then real Police Boxes weren't flat-pack lightweight wooden constructions that could be moved from filming location to filming location. They were actual structures, to all intents and purposes, buildings. Usually made mostly of concrete. They certainly weren't things that could be easily hoiked from one place to another. And given that they were official police equipment, it seems very unlikely the Police were just taking them down the local junkyard whenever they wanted rid of them, where anyone could buy one for who knows what purposes!

But hey, let's just ask the question; How effective was the Police Box as a disguise? And the answer is "not at all". Something that is clearly illustrated in the show's very first episode. Ian and Barbara enter the Junk Yard looking for Susan, and the following exchange takes place;

BARBARA: Ian, look at this.
IAN: It's a Police Box! What on earth's it doing here? These things are usually on the street.

It's literally the first thing they notice that completely attracts their attention, because it's something that absolutely isn't where it's supposed to be. So, yeah. Obviously it wasn't the intention at the time, but it's now very easy to look at those events and surmise that the Chameleon Circuit actually packed up prior to the Doctor and Susan's arrival in 1963. They just didn't notice, cos they weren't clued up enough about Earth to realise what a very poor disguise a Police Box in a Junk Yard really was!

[Somecrazyaussie]

Except that doesn't happen in the Timeless Child arc. At all.

Where in the arc does it suggests the Doctor is deified? Or has any kind of magical powers, other than a biological ability to regenerate? An ability, it should be pointed out, that leads to the Doctor's contribution to Time Lord society basically coming down to the child being a petri dish that Tecteun experimented on.

Further, as others have said, the Doctor's memory of everything before One's childhood was erased. So everything that happened after that event remains exactly as we (and the Doctor!) remember. I'm curious, where in your space jesus parallel, does the Timeless Child in any way diminish the actions of the First Doctor?

At the absolute worst, it maybe suggests that on a subconscious level, the Doctor's desire to do good simply couldn't be suppressed and so he stole a Tardis (unknowingly, and with a little help from Clara, his Tardis!) and went off to be that wandering vagabond. And if the worst thing about a story is that a character we know is a good person turned out to have been a good person before we knew them... That just doesn't scream super-controversial to me.

I mean, in a lot of ways, it kinda makes sense of the sometimes contradictory reasons Doctor Who lore has given for why the Doctor left Gallifrey over the years. Because originally, he didn't really know exactly why he left... Just that it was the right thing to do.

I'm genuinely curious, what do you actually mean by "space jesus", in real, tangible, terms? How does it change who the Doctor is and what they've done? Because honestly, when it comes to turning the Doctor into some magical, omnipotent, God-like figure, the Timeless Child arc has got nothing on most of RTD's run on the show.

Space Jesus needs to take a walk. It builds the Doctor up into being this mighty, mythical figure that has a grand destiny to play in the scheme of things. Really, the Doctor should just be a time-lord who got bored with living a time-lord life, pinched a TARDIS and went to see the universe. RTD definite got the ball rolling on that one, Moffat ran with it, and Chibnall is the one who scored the touchdown with it.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I just would've preferred the Timeless Child and the Fugitive be seperate characters than the Doctor themselves.

Having the Fugitive be an older version of Susan is fanservice done better. It also gives Whitaker and Martin more of a clear dynamic to work with. It clears up some plot holes and is an easier sell to the audience. At their core, the Doctor is a uneasy parental figure and this is another way to explore that. Flux now becomes the ultimate bonding exercise. 13 reconnects with Susan and helps her settle a score from her Division days.

You could even leave Susan with Kavinesta, Vander and Bel as a spinoff tease. .

The Timeless Child should've just been a new companion that the Doctor seeks out to make amends with or to stop the Master from corrupting. If the Doctor has to team up with the Master to protect Timeless from Time Lord Society, all the more better.

It's new territory for Modern Who and easier to pitch a casual audience.

The Timeless Child should have been the Master. It makes perfect sense for it to have been given how insane he is and how much of a hatred boner he has for Time-Lords in general.

The Fugitive Doctor, if you had to have one, should have been between Troughton and Pertwee. Moffat is the one who tossed the numbering out the window, so would it have hurt if The Fugitive was between 2nd and 3rd? I don't think so and is easier to do rather than the can of worms opened up with multiple Doctors before Hartnell.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Question is, if RTD writes the show the same way as before, will it be received positively by anti-sjw types that claim they are fans of the show and want to take it back to where it was in the earlier seasons? My humble opinion is that a lot of his writing would now be called too "woke", for example Planet of the Ood. From what I noticed, a lot of this anti-woke/sjw comments started sometime around 2015, but DW was tackling progressive themes long before that.

Doctor Who has always addressed social and political themes. The difference is they used to do it in a manner that it informed the story being told rather than the other way around.

Take Orphan 55. Not only was it an atrocious piece of television in its own right (it was flimsy with its own logic all the way throughout its narrative), but you have the Doctor almost break the forth wall and give a monologue to the companions (I.e the audience) about how "humanity is on a precipice. This is what your earth can look like if you don't action!"

Now, take The Curse Of Peladon. That story was basically a commentary of a sovereign nation (a planet in this case) joining a larger political body (the Galactic Federation). Allegory which mirrored the then debate in the UK over whether to join the ECC. All the alien delegates are pretty much from European nations. Peladon is the stand in for the British monarchy/government. King Peladon himself was forward thinking, while Hepesh is tied to the older ways of doing things.

For me, The Curse Of Peladon is a better story because it can be taken on two levels. You can choose to see the political allegory if you did deeper, but you'll get an entertaining story if you don't. Orphan 55 did not dò that because it is busy trying to make a statement. It's why the narrative builds to what it does.

As to whether fans will receive his work positively? Honestly, I don't think many will care. They'll have blinders on. Until he does something they dislike and then he'll become a pariah too.

[Somecrazyaussie]

So far according to everything the BCC has neither denied these rumors or confirmed them. They likely know how this could drive interest to the property and its best to keep people guessing awhile. I still believe they should make the entire crew sign NDA's , secretly go about casting the next Doctor and keep it as much a secret as possible. Film the regeneration scene away privately where no one can see it.

That night have everyone guessing until the reveal of whoever it is. Make it a WHO WILL IT BE ?

Won't work. Because of the age we live in. Someone outside the production would find out by virtue of hanging out in the bushes or, heaven forbid, raiding RTDs rubbish bin. In the 80s it was easier due to the fact stories were recorded an episode a week and they were filmed at television centre (Which was hard to get into and the galleries could be closed off).

[Somecrazyaussie]

The 'gap' between Doctors has always been a time heavy with speculation, false alarms, etc. I think in the RTD/Moffat era the guesses were reasonably close within a week, although some were pretty sure Patterson Joseph would be 11, and of course The Next Doctor special, while it was filming, kind of threw some people off the "scent". I think that Moffat hinted at a female Doctor in "Doctor falls"- (Is the future all girl? Let's hope so!") but I'm not sure if Moffat knew at that point.

Moffat definitely knew. Look at series 10 and you'll see he was dropping subtle hints.

[Tendrin]

I much preferred my Doctor as a middling, c-grade time lord who felt stifled by an ossified society and gave it the slip and became something greater in the proces

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

The Timeless Child should have been the Master. It makes perfect sense for it to have been given how insane he is and how much of a hatred boner he has for Time-Lords in general.

The Fugitive Doctor, if you had to have one, should have been between Troughton and Pertwee. Moffat is the one who tossed the numbering out the window, so would it have hurt if The Fugitive was between 2nd and 3rd? I don't think so and is easier to do rather than the can of worms opened up with multiple Doctors before Hartnell.

I disagree on the latter because it's too fan centric and answers a question no one really had. Susan was the heart of the show- one of the OG companions. Even Capaldi wanted Susan to return so if he stuck around for series 11, I'd would have used this as a way to do so.

I'm 50/50 on the Master being the Timeless Child. It feels too much like an attempt to make him sympathetic. They've always just been a campy "I'm bad because I liked it" kind of villian. But it's a tool he could use to manipulate the Doctor so I'm curious about it.

[Catlady in training]

Doctor Who has always addressed social and political themes. The difference is they used to do it in a manner that it informed the story being told rather than the other way around.

Take Orphan 55. Not only was it an atrocious piece of television in its own right (it was flimsy with its own logic all the way throughout its narrative), but you have the Doctor almost break the forth wall and give a monologue to the companions (I.e the audience) about how "humanity is on a precipice. This is what your earth can look like if you don't action!"

Now, take The Curse Of Peladon. That story was basically a commentary of a sovereign nation (a planet in this case) joining a larger political body (the Galactic Federation). Allegory which mirrored the then debate in the UK over whether to join the ECC. All the alien delegates are pretty much from European nations. Peladon is the stand in for the British monarchy/government. King Peladon himself was forward thinking, while Hepesh is tied to the older ways of doing things.

For me, The Curse Of Peladon is a better story because it can be taken on two levels. You can choose to see the political allegory if you did deeper, but you'll get an entertaining story if you don't. Orphan 55 did not dò that because it is busy trying to make a statement. It's why the narrative builds to what it does.

As to whether fans will receive his work positively? Honestly, I don't think many will care. They'll have blinders on. Until he does something they dislike and then he'll become a pariah too.

I disagree about Orphan 55. I liked it and didn't think it was not handled well. And considering the times we live in now, a direct message like that is definitely needed, considering the unbelievable indifference many have towards the climate crisis. I doubt it will work on many adults, but DW is watched by a lot of children and that is where I think it has a chance to succeed.
And the subtlety (or lack of it) is not much different than in Planet of the Ood, Gridlock, The Zygon Invasion/Inversion, or even World War Three.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I disagree about Orphan 55. I liked it and didn't think it was not handled well. And considering the times we live in now, a direct message like that is definitely needed, considering the unbelievable indifference many have towards the climate crisis. I doubt it will work on many adults, but DW is watched by a lot of children and that is where I think it has a chance to succeed.
And the subtlety (or lack of it) is not much different than in Planet of the Ood, Gridlock, The Zygon Invasion/Inversion, or even World War Three.

Not as many children watch Doctor Who as some are lead to believe. Maybe once, yes. But it's only the die-hards keeping it going. Because it's gone so far up its rear end its alienated the casual viewer.

I am glad someone liked it. Believe me, it was a story I wanted to like due to the writers previous story. It had all the tropes I enjoy. But it turned out as subtle as a bull in a china shop. forced dialogue and a conversation that exists solely to hammer home the message the writer is trying to get across. You can educate, but never forget you are delivering a show that needs to entertain.

For me, out of those stories you listed, Gridlock entertained. The Zygon Invasion/Inversion certainly entertained. World War Three? Yes, I'll give you that one because that was also a travesty. Planet of the Ood definitely commented on slavery, but it was never as blunt with the message as Orphan 55 ended up being.

Different strokes

[Somecrazyaussie]

I much preferred my Doctor as a middling, c-grade time lord who felt stifled by an ossified society and gave it the slip and became something greater in the proces

I do too. I agree.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I disagree on the latter because it's too fan centric and answers a question no one really had. Susan was the heart of the show- one of the OG companions. Even Capaldi wanted Susan to return so if he stuck around for series 11, I'd would have used this as a way to do so.

I'm 50/50 on the Master being the Timeless Child. It feels too much like an attempt to make him sympathetic. They've always just been a campy "I'm bad because I liked it" kind of villian. But it's a tool he could use to manipulate the Doctor so I'm curious about it.

The scenario I outlined is one way I could see the Fugitive Doctor being explained if someone was to undo The Timeless Children. In the end I just think all of it will be ignored moving forward. So you may not need to even address it.

Personally, i feel The Master doesn't need a full backstory. But The Timeless Child reveal would help explain some questions as to why he is the way he is if they had to go down that route.