Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Vworp Vworp]

No, see, what I was getting at is that it does not currently exist at any point in time in 'our' universe.

That's always been a bit fuzzy. Cos it was a Time War, there was an implication that Gallifrey's destruction (as far as everyone was concerned) meant it no longer existed at any point in time. But if that was the case, then the Doctor shouldn't really be around either. Then RTD created the whole 'Time Lock' thing for The End of Time, and then we discover it wasn't destroyed by the Moment by Captain Grumpy anyway and is sent to a pocket universe - where time apparently can still pass, hence the Time Lord's message on Trenzalore and subsequent gift to the Doctor through the crack.

The way I see it, the Doc could always have travelled back to Gallifrey in its past (even before he discovered/remembered what had really happened), but chose not to as it would have been too dangerous, both to his own time-line and to Gallifrey's in general - Not to mention, pretty traumatic and upsetting. After all, even when Gallifrey was around in the classic series, all of the Doc's visits were always chronological. Presumably it's the one place in the universe where he can't/won't visit the past.

[mr_crisp]

I just realized something. At the end of the episode Clara leaves the gunless toy soldier, that Orson Pink gave her, with the young Doctor. Maybe that is how his need not to need a gun started.

[Crimson Knight]

No, see, what I was getting at is that it does not currently exist at any point in time in 'our' universe.

I don't understand what you mean. The TARDIS? The 'fear creature'?

The barn? What do you mean?

[Jim Kelly]

I thought that Gallifrey was removed from all time and space in our universe. It made sense, because in the Time War both Time Lords and Daleks were constantly travelling through time and attacking one another. So to simply remove Gallifrey from one point in time would not have satisfied the Daleks--they still would have gone back in time and attacked Gallifrey in its past. So it seemed to me that Gallifrey entirely dropped out of our space-time continuum, but was saved inside a pocket universe.

However, I have no problem with the Tardis somehow getting to Gallifrey--because it's the Tardis and the Impossible Girl and the Doctor's nightmare. Somehow the telepathic circuits allow the Tardis to home in on that point in the Doctor's timeline, because the old girl can do things that Clara and the Doctor could not do on their own.

[Kirby101]

I was thinking Blink and the Empty Child/The Doctor Dances...btw if there was nothing to fear except fear it's self. What was that under the Bed Spread?

As they said, it could have just been one of Rupert's chums playing a prank? Was there someone trying to get into the capsule? Or was it the airlock breaching? I think they want it left a mystery.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The episode was very uneven in a way. I can only think that by Clara going back and doing the under the bed deal , and scaring the young Doctor as a kid ...his dreams somehow creeped into the entire Universe . Where people would have that same dream at some point. That his nightmare gave it reality in a sense. The best part was Peter Capaldi again showing how awesome he is. He could do a rant about the things under your bed and scare the crap outta you.

I enjoyed the Robin Hood episode a lot more. That really seemed like a loving wink to the classic series. Where the Doctor gets thrown into a fun situation and has to figure out how things are. I always loved the end scene there Robin tells him that they can fool themselves and others by trying to act the part long enough. And maybe people will write stories about them.

[Jim Kelly]

It's the not knowing that's the scary bit. I was always scared of windows at night. Because you look through the window and it's pitch dark and you can't see a thing. So what is out there? When you're left to imagine the unknown horror that's much more frightening than the devil you know.

I can't think of any connection in this story with Promised Land. I think they just wanted to have Peter Calpaldi saying "Listen" a lot, because it sounds dead cool with a Scottish accent.

[LoneNecromancer]

Yeah, I remember thinking very early on into the episode that the monster if there was one would be spoiled if they actually showed what it was, so I think it's better there's a level of ambiguity left.

[Xalfrea]

With the amount of times it was dropped in this episode, I can't help but recall that one video on Youtube that had 50 years of episode title drops.

By the end of that video I'm not sure what I got more sick of hearing: The Daleks, The Sensorites, The Krotons, The Silurians, Logopolis, Castrovalva, Paradise Towers, or Happiness Patrol.

[Crimson Knight]

I thought that Gallifrey was removed from all time and space in our universe. It made sense, because in the Time War both Time Lords and Daleks were constantly travelling through time and attacking one another. So to simply remove Gallifrey from one point in time would not have satisfied the Daleks--they still would have gone back in time and attacked Gallifrey in its past. So it seemed to me that Gallifrey entirely dropped out of our space-time continuum, but was saved inside a pocket universe.

However, I have no problem with the Tardis somehow getting to Gallifrey--because it's the Tardis and the Impossible Girl and the Doctor's nightmare. Somehow the telepathic circuits allow the Tardis to home in on that point in the Doctor's timeline, because the old girl can do things that Clara and the Doctor could not do on their own.

Amusing how you say that, as I was watching it, thinking what'd be a good new name, for Twelve to use, instead of sexy, like Eleven used.

Ol' girl, or old girl, was it, interestingly enough, though oddly found the former less creepy than the other.

[Patchmadripoor]

Yeah, I remember thinking very early on into the episode that the monster if there was one would be spoiled if they actually showed what it was, so I think it's better there's a level of ambiguity left.

This things about the monster stuck with me the entire time. And as a fanboy with too much time on my hands, I've connected a few impossible dots.

What if we are seeing the birth on the entity from "Midnight"? The beginning of the closed loop, where Midnight is somewhere in the middle.

Something entity crossed the line between unreal/real?

Or worse yet, something that spawns itself telepathically, in the great fears of others?

[THE DANGER965]

One of the things that I most enjoyed out of Listen was visiting the Doctor's childhood; it's a part of the character that we never really see so it was a great surprise. But I am interested in what everyone else thinks when it comes down to the Doctor's childhood. Throughout the show the Doctors childhood has only been hinted at, but never really seen until now. Like everyone else I loved visiting the Doctor when he was just a kid as we've now learnt a whole lot more about the character. So should we learn even More about the the characters childhood? Some fans sure want to; and some fans don't. Though I can see why because what party makes the Doctor a good character is the mystery. So If we're to learn even more about the character it may just slightly make the Doctor less interesting.

Am interested to know if someone else here thinks differently. Why should we learn even more about the character?

[T.D.]

I missed last weeks episode, so I ended up watching Robot of Sherwood and Listen back-to-back. I've been pleased so far with season 8-- it's not incredibly impressive or mindblowingly great, but it's been a solid run of enjoyable (if somewhat forgettable) episodes that is a marked improvement over seasons 6 and 7.

Robot of Sherwood was a fun story, but Clara nearly ruined it for me. I quite enjoyed her character early on when she was so excited to be meeting Robin Hood and his Merry Men (While this new, odd, more alien Doctor is confused and trying to figure out where they came from-- a marked departure from the kind of excited exuberance you would have gotten from Ten or Eleven in the same situation. Great showcase for Capaldi). But once they were in the dungeon, Clara becomes unbearably smug and unflappable in the scene with the Sherriff. There was just zero sense of peril or danger whatsoever in that scene; it just sucks all of the energy out of the story when the companion doesn't give a crap about what's going on and acts like none of this is a big deal. Clara swings so far away from the screamy, Doctor-dependent companion model (which I also cant' stand) that she barely behaves as a normal human being would. It's just obnoxious.

Anyway, most everything else was enjoyable despite some stupid plot elements that easily could have been explained with some simple script editing (especially the golden arrow bit-- rather than showing the gold being melted and turned into circuits, it should have been merely a matter of gold mass connected to the ship; then the finale would have actually made a fair bit of sense). I didn't really like that The Doctor had very little to do in the actual story, and we hilariously get a classic Who "capture then escape then capture then escape" sequence thrown in there as well. This one would have worked SO much better as a pure historical; the sci fi elements were intrusive (especially because not even TWO episodes ago we had another story about robots stranded in the past scavenging to repair their ship).

Listen turned out much better, and is not only the strongest Twelve story so far, but maybe the best thing Moffat has written since The Eleventh Hour. It's a really, really odd episode, both structurally and thematically, but the more I think about it, the more it works for me. I could still do without the typical Moffatisms that he has to squeeze into every script-- a creepy nursery rhyme, people constantly being told to "shut up," a companion with a timey-wimey mystery that ties him to The Doctor and Clara-- but the last 10 minutes was a really fascinating subversion that wasn't merely clever for clever's sake (which is usually how these sorts of closed-loop reveals often go in Moffat stories). It's one I'll probably need to think about even more, but my initial reaction is very positive.

One minor note: I admit I roll my eyes a bit at how Moffat keeps writing Clara into these incredibly significant moments in the Doctor's life. After this and the entire Impossible Girl arc, it's a bit disheartening that one of the most blandly written, generic companions in the show's history is so intrinsically tied to the core of the Doctor's character (with no fault on Jenna Coleman, though, who is usually quite good). At this point I'm just assuming the Christmas special will feature Clara inventing the word "Doctor" at the dawn of Gallifreyan society, becomes a history teacher at the Time Lord Academy where she forges a close relationship with a rebellious student who yearns to see the Universe, before finally settling down with Danny on Earth in 1962 where they found a junkyard business on Totter's Lane.

One of the things that I most enjoyed out of Listen was visiting the Doctor's childhood; it's a part of the character that we never really see so it was a great surprise. But I am interested in what everyone else thinks when it comes down to the Doctor's childhood. Throughout the show the Doctors childhood has only been hinted at, but never really seen until now. Like everyone else I loved visiting the Doctor when he was just a kid as we've now learnt a whole lot more about the character. So should we learn even More about the the characters childhood? Some fans sure want to; and some fans don't. Though I can see why because what party makes the Doctor a good character is the mystery. So If we're to learn even more about the character it may just slightly make the Doctor less interesting.

Am interested to know if someone else here thinks differently. Why should we learn even more about the character?

Moffat was smart enough to not even show the young Gallifreyan's face. The Doctor needs to have some level of mystery, and exploring his childhood in greater detail would be a terrible idea. Some things need to be left unsaid so imagination can fill the gaps.

[mr_crisp]

One of the things that I most enjoyed out of Listen was visiting the Doctor's childhood; it's a part of the character that we never really see so it was a great surprise. But I am interested in what everyone else thinks when it comes down to the Doctor's childhood. Throughout the show the Doctors childhood has only been hinted at, but never really seen until now. Like everyone else I loved visiting the Doctor when he was just a kid as we've now learnt a whole lot more about the character. So should we learn even More about the the characters childhood? Some fans sure want to; and some fans don't. Though I can see why because what party makes the Doctor a good character is the mystery. So If we're to learn even more about the character it may just slightly make the Doctor less interesting.

Am interested to know if someone else here thinks differently. Why should we learn even more about the character?

I'm mixed. We should learn a little more about the Doctor's childhood but then we shouldn't for learning too much.

[Carabas]

No, see, what I was getting at is that it does not currently exist at any point in time in 'our' universe.

The thing is, the TARDIS is perfectly capable of traveling to places not inside our universe. Especially if some idiot turned off the safeties and some other idiot who doesn't know the rules is driving.