Why does Black Cat need to be redeemed?

[Docz]

I would say Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do by Kevin Smith and Terry (and Rachel?) Dodson, which aside from a certain retcon in the second half that will go unmentioned had pretty good characterization of both Peter and Felicia, at least to start with. Then there's Marvel Knights Spider-Man (or Spider-Man by Mark Millar, as the name it's collected under) #1-12, which is basically a maxi-series about Spider-Man taking on his worst enemies as united by Norman Osborn, with Felicia playing a major role throughout and Mary Jane realizing, and saying as much to Peter, that Felicia is still in love with him. Sensational Spider-Man (formerly Marvel Knights Spider-Man) #34 is also a great character focus issue for Felicia during the original Civil War, showing her willingness to stand by Peter even with Mary Jane and Aunt May being portrayed (from Felicia's POV) as less than supportive of her proximity to Peter and giving her a great moment where she reasons with the Rhino instead of trying to beat him down, saying that they can both be more than how they appear to others. Hell, Felicia has a specific line about herself in that talk with Rhino that really flies in the face of what Marvel turned her into post-OMD and then post-Superior Spider-Man.

These are some of my favorite Black Cat stories. The Millar Marvel Knights ones in particular. That's really the story that made me a Black Cat fan.

[Huntsman Spider]

These are some of my favorite Black Cat stories. The Millar Marvel Knights ones in particular. That's really the story that made me a Black Cat fan.

Black Cat's Greatest Hits, you could almost say. It'd be fun to hold them up with her original characterization in the 1980s and see just how far she's come.

[The Mary Janes]

I would say Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do by Kevin Smith and Terry (and Rachel?) Dodson, which aside from a certain retcon in the second half that will go unmentioned had pretty good characterization of both Peter and Felicia, at least to start with. Then there's Marvel Knights Spider-Man (or Spider-Man by Mark Millar, as the name it's collected under) #1-12, which is basically a maxi-series about Spider-Man taking on his worst enemies as united by Norman Osborn, with Felicia playing a major role throughout and Mary Jane realizing, and saying as much to Peter, that Felicia is still in love with him. Sensational Spider-Man (formerly Marvel Knights Spider-Man) #34 is also a great character focus issue for Felicia during the original Civil War, showing her willingness to stand by Peter even with Mary Jane and Aunt May being portrayed (from Felicia's POV) as less than supportive of her proximity to Peter and giving her a great moment where she reasons with the Rhino instead of trying to beat him down, saying that they can both be more than how they appear to others. Hell, Felicia has a specific line about herself in that talk with Rhino that really flies in the face of what Marvel turned her into post-OMD and then post-Superior Spider-Man.

Hey, thanks for this. I'll get on it as soon as I can. I love Dodson's work, I had no idea interiors were done by him. Also, is Spider-Man/Black Cat the one where she gets drugged and raped? I think I heard about that, and that's what put me off from bother to read that story.

[TheCape]

Hey, thanks for this. I'll get on it as soon as I can. I love Dodson's work, I had no idea interiors were done by him. Also, is Spider-Man/Black Cat the one where she gets drugged and raped? I think I heard about that, and that's what put me off from bother to read that story.

Is that one, the first half is pretty good thougth.

[Spidey5640]

Once again, we lose out on a better story than what we have. God knows what Slott and Bendis did to her, especially since the latter is gone. Maybe she can be fixed. I love your idea.

Thanks. It's been a rough last few years being a Black Cat fan. Marvel/Slott/Bendis has really dropped the ball with her characterization. Felicia is one of the few characters that could genuinely occupy the "gray" area between hero and villain.....never good enough for some of the heroes, never evil enough for the bad guys. Imagine what you could do with that as a writer. A pariah in both worlds....Marvel doesn't really have a character like that. Some may say the Punisher but the difference there is he has no interest in being a hero or being accepted by anyone, there is no conflict in him like there would be with Felicia.

She could be so much more than what she currently is...

[comicscollector]

Felicia's origin storyline was one in which she planned to mastermind an escape from prison for her dying jailbird father, and in her second appearance she was stealing things to create a shrine for Spider-man, who she had a serious crush on. Hardly the stuff of villainous legend. If characters such as Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Black Widow can get a free pass for their early misguided criminal careers I don't see why Felicia shouldn't.

Sensational #34 is an example of progress and character development. It is very important, otherwise why even bother with serialized fiction if nothing other than the first appearance matters?

You are comparing apples to oranges to try help your point.
Hawkeye,Scarlet Witch and Black Widow are all characters that had way more characterisation developed that Black Cat ever had.
And did not had a characterisation writen in a grey área as Felicia.
And you must not read very well what i posted or something.
Because i clearly gave more exemples that just characterisation of the first apearences.
Repeating myself again but whatever:
Black Cat got the Bad Luck powers by making a deal with the Kingpin(Spider-Man arch enemy) in the early 80s (after the first apearence)
Black Cat threatned Mary Jane in the early 90s because of being jealous of Peter and Mary Jane(after the first apearence)
Black Cat dated Flash (that was one of the bigest Peter friends during that time) just to make Peter jealous not caring about Flash in the early 90s(after the first apearence)
Black Cat was back stealing in the late 00s (after the first apearence)

Sarcasm on.
So yeah,Felicia was really a super hero all the times and nobody could have liked that she turned a villain after the events of Superior Spider-Man.
Sarcasm off.

[comicscollector]

Felicia has spent more of her time in the comics as an ally to Spidey than as a crook. I can't imagine that there are any Black Cat fans out there who like the new status quo, only haters who have an axe to grind with the character enjoy the new direction.

By that same token i can say that the Black Cat fans that did not enjoy the new status quo of Black Cat are haters of new Spider-Man stories that have a axe to grind because of reasons.
But seems silly to label diferente opinions that mine about fictional characters with such generalizations about them.

[phantom1592]

You are comparing apples to oranges to try help your point.
Hawkeye,Scarlet Witch and Black Widow are all characters that had way more characterisation developed that Black Cat ever had.
And did not had a characterisation writen in a grey área as Felicia.

I would also say that Black Widow has had some SERIOUS character regression in recent years too. She started out as a Russian Spy and got flipped to the good guys...

Then she spent YEARS putting her russian spy roots behind her. She was partners with Daredevil and even led the Avengers as a hero. Reminder... the Avengers do NOT kill. Captain America disbanded the Avengers because some wanted to kill Supreme intelligence. Daredevil does NOT kill or TOLERATE killing. It's what makes his entire relationship with Elektra tragic and his fights with Punisher Iconic.

Now? She's straight back to black ops super-spy assassin again and that's pretty much all is really mentioned about her.

Captain America is another one. He went DECADES with the ultimate 'No-kill' policy, and now? Now he's back to 'Well he fought in WWII he must aprove killing enemies!!' mentalities. Not to mention the insanity of letting Wolverine join the New Avengers 'to do what they couldn't...

Gambit's the tricky one. Everyone wants to talk about the marauders, but that was an epic level retcon. Mutant Massacre happened 4 years before Gambit was ever introduced and was never part of his backstory. That was added nearly a decade after he had a bunch of fans.

[Frontier]

You are comparing apples to oranges to try help your point.
Hawkeye,Scarlet Witch and Black Widow are all characters that had way more characterisation developed that Black Cat ever had.
And did not had a characterisation writen in a grey área as Felicia.
And you must not read very well what i posted or something.
Because i clearly gave more exemples that just characterisation of the first apearences.
Repeating myself again but whatever:
Black Cat got the Bad Luck powers by making a deal with the Kingpin(Spider-Man arch enemy) in the early 80s (after the first apearence)
Black Cat threatned Mary Jane in the early 90s because of being jealous of Peter and Mary Jane(after the first apearence)
Black Cat dated Flash (that was one of the bigest Peter friends during that time) just to make Peter jealous not caring about Flash in the early 90s(after the first apearence)
Black Cat was back stealing in the late 00s (after the first apearence)

She has also had plenty of heroic or supportive moments alongside Spidey on-top of this.

Even if she acted out or did something wrong she eventually grew from and learned from it, or it had consequences. It didn't turn her into a one-note Supervillain.

By that same token i can say that the Black Cat fans that did not enjoy the new status quo of Black Cat are haters of new Spider-Man stories that have a axe to grind because of reasons.
But seems silly to label diferente opinions that mine about fictional characters with such generalizations about them.

Well, Black Cat fans who don't enjoy the new status quo have certainly been given plenty to complain about outside the Spider-Man books (ugh, Star-Lord...).

[Vegeta]

You are comparing apples to oranges to try help your point.
Hawkeye,Scarlet Witch and Black Widow are all characters that had way more characterisation developed that Black Cat ever had.

They did not have much characterization prior to joining the Avengers.

And did not had a characterisation writen in a grey área as Felicia.

So working with Magneto when he wanted to rule the world or spying for Communist Russia don't count as grey areas?

And you must not read very well what i posted or something.
Because i clearly gave more exemples that just characterisation of the first apearences.

Well it can be difficult considering that your spelling is atrocious and your grammar is so poor.

[comicscollector]

I would also say that Black Widow has had some SERIOUS character regression in recent years too. She started out as a Russian Spy and got flipped to the good guys...

Then she spent YEARS putting her russian spy roots behind her. She was partners with Daredevil and even led the Avengers as a hero. Reminder... the Avengers do NOT kill. Captain America disbanded the Avengers because some wanted to kill Supreme intelligence. Daredevil does NOT kill or TOLERATE killing. It's what makes his entire relationship with Elektra tragic and his fights with Punisher Iconic.

Now? She's straight back to black ops super-spy assassin again and that's pretty much all is really mentioned about her.

Captain America is another one. He went DECADES with the ultimate 'No-kill' policy, and now? Now he's back to 'Well he fought in WWII he must aprove killing enemies!!' mentalities. Not to mention the insanity of letting Wolverine join the New Avengers 'to do what they couldn't...

Gambit's the tricky one. Everyone wants to talk about the marauders, but that was an epic level retcon. Mutant Massacre happened 4 years before Gambit was ever introduced and was never part of his backstory. That was added nearly a decade after he had a bunch of fans.

Those are exemples of regression and inconsistencies of those characters but are not comparable to Black Cat,because Black Widow for exemple was a Avengers leader and her controversial past was well behind her when she joined the Avengers more or less.
Hawkeye was a villain for one story before being one of the most used character as a Avengers in multiple teams.
And they are all characters that were developed through hundreds of comic books.
Black Cat apearences are much more less thus why i dont see how characters with characterisation developed in hundreds of comic books can be compared to characters as Black Cat that apeared in much more less stories.

[comicscollector]

She has also had plenty of heroic or supportive moments alongside Spidey on-top of this.

Even if she acted out or did something wrong she eventually grew from and learned from it, or it had consequences. It didn't turn her into a one-note Supervillain.

Yep,those exemples i gave do not make Black Cat a one Note Supervillain,but shows traits of Felicia characterisation that indicate that her becoming a villain as she did post Superior Spider-Man is actually that not far fetched and suported by older stories with her.

Well, Black Cat fans who don't enjoy the new status quo have certainly been given plenty to complain about outside the Spider-Man books (ugh, Star-Lord...).

I do not read Star Lord so i dont have a opinion about that story.
But as a Black Cat fan i am quite happy to read her stories in the Spidey books ever since Amazing Spider-Man#606 or so.
Thought the story in Superior Spider-Man with Black Cat was quite well written and have been enjoying reading her in a diferent butt nevertheless interesting characterisation.

[comicscollector]

Well it can be difficult considering that your spelling is atrocious and your grammar is so poor.

And that explains you cherry picking what i said ignoring most of it,to try to make a point?
Okay.
Anyways:
A:I am writing in my second language.
B:Usually when posting about comic books i am multi tasking as well doing other things thus why i dont spend time Reading about what i posted looking for errors.I know comic books are a serious business so i should be much more careful about spelling and grammar of what i wrote.But i guess that i dont take comic books that seriously to try make all my posts like they are answers to a job interview.

[Frontier]

But as a Black Cat fan i am quite happy to read her stories in the Spidey books ever since Amazing Spider-Man#606 or so.
Thought the story in Superior Spider-Man with Black Cat was quite well written and have been enjoying reading her in a diferent butt nevertheless interesting characterisation.

And I disagree that anything about this turn for Felicia has been well-written or particularly interesting, especially since she's so one-note and generic in any appearance she's in now.

Even her in her less then stellar moments is nowhere on par with how she acts as Queenpin.

[comicscollector]

And I disagree that anything about this turn for Felicia has been well-written or particularly interesting, especially since she's so one-note and generic in any appearance she's in now.

Even her in her less then stellar moments is nowhere on par with how she acts as Queenpin.

Thats fine.
Then we agree to disagree about the curent Black Cat characterisation in the comic books.