Why does Black Cat need to be redeemed?

[phantom1592]

Those are exemples of regression and inconsistencies of those characters but are not comparable to Black Cat,because Black Widow for exemple was a Avengers leader and her controversial past was well behind her when she joined the Avengers more or less.
Hawkeye was a villain for one story before being one of the most used character as a Avengers in multiple teams.
And they are all characters that were developed through hundreds of comic books.
Black Cat apearences are much more less thus why i dont see how characters with characterisation developed in hundreds of comic books can be compared to characters as Black Cat that apeared in much more less stories.

Oh I seem to be agreeing with you. My point was that Black Widow, captain America and them had a LOT of character development and had grown a LOT since their first appearances... but everyone just wants to regress them to 'First Appearance' again. It's a lot worse when writers will wipe out 700 appearances of growth... then they will a mere 50. (Exaggeration I know). My point was it's easier to relegate Black Cat to earlier appearances (ESPECIALLY with OMD screwing things up) than it is for Captain America or Widow... but that doesn't stop them.



On a separate note... Honest Question. What exactly do BC fans consider to be her motivation? WHY was she growing so much as a character? Why was she 'heroic' in your opinion. From my experience with her and there hasn't been much at all since the 90's... She was out for excitement... She 'loved' Spider-man (but was bored with Peter Parker), and wanted to impress him... and didn't want to be told what to do by anyone.

I don't really remember that heroic 'protect innocents' or 'use powers responsibly' or 'uphold the law' or really any kind of 'uncle ben' transistion... it was more Peter being a good influence over many many years.

Honestly that wasn't a strong foundation for heroism and having Spider-man turn on her like Ock did? I can see that foundation crumbling... especially since so much of their relationship HAD to be changed with her not knowing about Peter Parker and the MJ wedding not happening... Going 'Back to the basics', isn't that bad of an idea... regardless of how badly the finished work was...

[Phoenix_Renegade]

Marvel continue to trash the ASM comics again, again & again... No life, no love, no friends... Why???

[Lukmendes]

Oh I seem to be agreeing with you. My point was that Black Widow, captain America and them had a LOT of character development and had grown a LOT since their first appearances... but everyone just wants to regress them to 'First Appearance' again. It's a lot worse when writers will wipe out 700 appearances of growth... then they will a mere 50. (Exaggeration I know). My point was it's easier to relegate Black Cat to earlier appearances (ESPECIALLY with OMD screwing things up) than it is for Captain America or Widow... but that doesn't stop them.



On a separate note... Honest Question. What exactly do BC fans consider to be her motivation? WHY was she growing so much as a character? Why was she 'heroic' in your opinion. From my experience with her and there hasn't been much at all since the 90's... She was out for excitement... She 'loved' Spider-man (but was bored with Peter Parker), and wanted to impress him... and didn't want to be told what to do by anyone.

I don't really remember that heroic 'protect innocents' or 'use powers responsibly' or 'uphold the law' or really any kind of 'uncle ben' transistion... it was more Peter being a good influence over many many years.

Honestly that wasn't a strong foundation for heroism and having Spider-man turn on her like Ock did? I can see that foundation crumbling... especially since so much of their relationship HAD to be changed with her not knowing about Peter Parker and the MJ wedding not happening... Going 'Back to the basics', isn't that bad of an idea... regardless of how badly the finished work was...

"Back to basics" would be her going back to stealing shit (Which she was doing anyway before Otto beat her up), and while she did have grudges on Spidey before (Like that time he went to Dr Strange to remove her bad luck powers affecting him, which screwed her powers), she never did change her character the way she did now, just kept a grudge on Peter, so the situation with Otto should at the very worst make her want to hunt down Peter (Which is not really unlikely for her to do, even with Peter not really being the one to do it) the way she is now is a character who's a Kingpin wannabe, who's just not fitting with Felicia.

[Vegeta]

By that same token i can say that the Black Cat fans that did not enjoy the new status quo of Black Cat are haters of new Spider-Man stories that have a axe to grind because of reasons.

No, you can't. Because that ignores the fact that there were several non-Black Cat Spider-Man issues that Felicia fans may have enjoyed. I personally liked Joe Kelly's Spider-Man/ Deadpool run and the last two issues of Spectacular Spider-Man.

And that explains you cherry picking what i said ignoring most of it,to try to make a point?
Okay.

Is that not what you are doing now?

A: You attacked me first, with remarks suggesting I was lacking in the "reading comprehension" department;
B: The other "grey areas" you mentioned weren't particularly strong examples. Sure, Felicia intended to break Flash's heart (not a crime) as a way of getting back at Spidey, but then she found herself truly falling in love with him. (And in the MC2 universe they had a child together!) In the end, it was Felicia who ended up hurt. She obtained powers from the Kingpin in an attempt not to be a burden to Spidey while crime fighting together. It was a bad decision, but not one made for criminal purposes.

A:I am writing in my second language.
B:Usually when posting about comic books i am multi tasking as well doing other things thus why i dont spend time Reading about what i posted looking for errors.I know comic books are a serious business so i should be much more careful about spelling and grammar of what i wrote.But i guess that i dont take comic books that seriously to try make all my posts like they are answers to a job interview.

And THIS is where you lose credibility. The old I'm just "too cool and busy with a life" argument, "and therefore, by comparison my opponent must be sad loser who takes this lame hobby way too seriously. What a dork!" Did you want to add anything about how you are constantly hooking up with "hot babes" all the time and that I am destined to die a virgin as well? Because you are on quite a roll here!

[comicscollector]

Oh I seem to be agreeing with you. My point was that Black Widow, captain America and them had a LOT of character development and had grown a LOT since their first appearances... but everyone just wants to regress them to 'First Appearance' again. It's a lot worse when writers will wipe out 700 appearances of growth... then they will a mere 50. (Exaggeration I know). My point was it's easier to relegate Black Cat to earlier appearances (ESPECIALLY with OMD screwing things up) than it is for Captain America or Widow... but that doesn't stop them.



On a separate note... Honest Question. What exactly do BC fans consider to be her motivation? WHY was she growing so much as a character? Why was she 'heroic' in your opinion. From my experience with her and there hasn't been much at all since the 90's... She was out for excitement... She 'loved' Spider-man (but was bored with Peter Parker), and wanted to impress him... and didn't want to be told what to do by anyone.

I don't really remember that heroic 'protect innocents' or 'use powers responsibly' or 'uphold the law' or really any kind of 'uncle ben' transistion... it was more Peter being a good influence over many many years.

Honestly that wasn't a strong foundation for heroism and having Spider-man turn on her like Ock did? I can see that foundation crumbling... especially since so much of their relationship HAD to be changed with her not knowing about Peter Parker and the MJ wedding not happening... Going 'Back to the basics', isn't that bad of an idea... regardless of how badly the finished work was...

Good points.
Black Cat did not had that many stories published with her at all.Besides when she was featured in Spectacular Spider-Man in the 80s and returned in the stories of Amazing Spider-Man in the early 90s.And very few stories in the 00s.
So it was not as Black Cat had a estabilished characterisation at being heroic or anything.
Even in one of the few Limited series she actually apeared as the Venom vs Carnage limited series from 2004,the story had her writen as she had never encountred Carnage before(Black Cat had apeared in the Maximun Carnage from the 90s)
So yeah,Black Cat characterisation have never been about responsibility,being heroic or uphold the law.
She was just not more of a villain because of Spider-Man positive influence with her,if not for Spider-Man Black Cat would had been a plain villain.So it made sense that since it was Spider-Man the reason why she was never a one note villain then it was Spider-Man as well that would make her become a villain (as seen in Superior Spider-Man)
Most of the stories with her was that Black Cat motivation was either the Money or doing whatever she wanted.

[Frontier]

Good points.
Black Cat did not had that many stories published with her at all.Besides when she was featured in Spectacular Spider-Man in the 80s and returned in the stories of Amazing Spider-Man in the early 90s.And very few stories in the 00s.
So it was not as Black Cat had a estabilished characterisation at being heroic or anything.
Even in one of the few Limited series she actually apeared as the Venom vs Carnage limited series from 2004,the story had her writen as she had never encountred Carnage before(Black Cat had apeared in the Maximun Carnage from the 90s)
So yeah,Black Cat characterisation have never been about responsibility,being heroic or uphold the law.
She was just not more of a villain because of Spider-Man positive influence with her,if not for Spider-Man Black Cat would had been a plain villain.So it made sense that since it was Spider-Man the reason why she was never a one note villain then it was Spider-Man as well that would make her become a villain (as seen in Superior Spider-Man)
Most of the stories with her was that Black Cat motivation was either the Money or doing whatever she wanted.

Really, if this was all about the betrayal from Spider-Man you'd think Felicia's anger would be more personal and direct rather then all this Queenpin nonsense.

At least that would've been in-character.

[comicscollector]

No, you can't. Because that ignores the fact that there were several non-Black Cat Spider-Man issues that Felicia fans may have enjoyed. I personally liked Joe Kelly's Spider-Man/ Deadpool run and the last two issues of Spectacular Spider-Man

So people that dislike the current Black Cat characterisation can generalize about people that like the curent characterisation but the contrary can not be done.

Is that not what you are doing now?

A: You attacked me first, with remarks suggesting I was lacking in the "reading comprehension" department;

Nope.
I said that you must not read what i said because the exemples of older stories with Felicia being writen in a grey área were ignored by you.
Saying you did not read is not the same as saying somebody is lacking in the Reading department by far.

B: The other "grey areas" you mentioned weren't particularly strong examples. Sure, Felicia intended to break Flash's heart (not a crime) as a way of getting back at Spidey, but then she found herself truly falling in love with him. (And in the MC2 universe they had a child together!) In the end, it was Felicia who ended up hurt. She obtained powers from the Kingpin in an attempt not to be a burden to Spidey while crime fighting together. It was a bad decision, but not one made for criminal purposes.

Then we have to agree to disagree then.
To me those exemples and that time Felicia threatned Mary Jane are good exemples of why Felicia was never that much heroic to begin with.
Thus why i think that when Black Cat decided to be a crime boss after Superior Spider-Man was really not that far fetched and makes sense considerating all the characterisation of Black Cat.

And THIS is where you lose credibility. The old I'm just "too cool and busy with a life" argument, "and therefore, by comparison my opponent must be sad loser who takes this lame hobby way too seriously. What a dork!" Did you want to add anything about how you are constantly hooking up with "hot babes" all the time and that I am destined to die a virgin as well? Because you are on quite a roll here!

You said that my posts are full of poor spelling and gramar.
Something that i answered with English being my second language and me being distracted with other things because i multi task while posting about comic books thus the errors of spelling and gramar in my posts.
So i have no idea from how you reached that conclusion,but obviously you are wrong about that.
I dont have that opinion about comic book fans like me.

[comicscollector]

Really, if this was all about the betrayal from Spider-Man you'd think Felicia's anger would be more personal and direct rather then all this Queenpin nonsense.

At least that would've been in-character.

Yeah.
If the stories had Felicia anger being more direct at Spider-Man would had made sense as well.
The way i see it,was that Felicia had not turned a plain villain because of Spider-Man,so it made sense to me that the actions from Spider-Man(controled by Octavious,something Felicia did not knew) would make her "regress" to being a villain like she probably would had if not for Spider-Man positive influence with her in the first stories she apeared.
Anyways i will have to read more recent stories with Black Cat to see how she have been writen,is just that i re-read recently the Superior Spider-Man stories with Black Cat and to me was a well writen story that had not Felicia turning into a villain without it being well explained.
Have not read the most recente stories with her as StarLord that you mentioned,so i will have to read those stories eventually to see if Felicia characterisation kept being well writen or not.

[Frontier]

Yeah.
If the stories had Felicia anger being more direct at Spider-Man would had made sense as well.
The way i see it,was that Felicia had not turned a plain villain because of Spider-Man,so it made sense to me that the actions from Spider-Man(controled by Octavious,something Felicia did not knew) would make her "regress" to being a villain like she probably would had if not for Spider-Man positive influence with her in the first stories she apeared.
Anyways i will have to read more recent stories with Black Cat to see how she have been writen,is just that i re-read recently the Superior Spider-Man stories with Black Cat and to me was a well writen story that had not Felicia turning into a villain without it being well explained.
Have not read the most recente stories with her as StarLord that you mentioned,so i will have to read those stories eventually to see if Felicia characterisation kept being well writen or not.

I dunno, even without Spidey's positive influence a lot of the Queenpin stuff just seems completely off-base for her (even moreso when you take Spidey's positive influence into account).

Far form what I would personally call well-written.

[Vegeta]

So people that dislike the current Black Cat characterisation can generalize about people that like the curent characterisation but the contrary can not be done.

I find it suspect that an actual fan of Ms. Hardy would like to see their favorite character dragged through the mud, yes.

Nope.
I said that you must not read what i said because the exemples of older stories with Felicia being writen in a grey área were ignored by you.
Saying you did not read is not the same as saying somebody is lacking in the Reading department by far.

No, you wrote that I "must not read very well" implying I lack in the ability. Here is your exact quote:

And you must not read very well what i posted or something.

Then we have to agree to disagree then.
To me those exemples and that time Felicia threatned Mary Jane are good exemples of why Felicia was never that much heroic to begin with.
Thus why i think that when Black Cat decided to be a crime boss after Superior Spider-Man was really not that far fetched and makes sense considerating all the characterisation of Black Cat.

Spider-Man is not considered a "shade of grey" character and yet he has threatened others in the past (such as J.J. Jameson) and he has made deals with villains such as the Green Goblin, Venom, the Jackal, Dr. Doom, and most famously, Mephisto.
Why isn't Spidey also a crime boss? Perhaps it has something to do with motivation?

You said that my posts are full of poor spelling and gramar.
Something that i answered with English being my second language and me being distracted with other things because i multi task while posting about comic books thus the errors of spelling and gramar in my posts.
So i have no idea from how you reached that conclusion,but obviously you are wrong about that.
I dont have that opinion about comic book fans like me.

Maybe it's because you made the comment "I guess I don't take comics that seriously" and then threw the "cool" emoji at the end of your statement.

[comicscollector]

I dunno, even without Spidey's positive influence a lot of the Queenpin stuff just seems completely off-base for her (even moreso when you take Spidey's positive influence into account).

Far form what I would personally call well-written.

Opinions vary though.
The Superior Spider-Man stories with Black Cat were well written to me.
Other more recent stories wih Black Cat i dont know,there are still plenty of new stories featuring Felicia that i have not read,so dunno about those.

[comicscollector]

I find it suspect that an actual fan of Ms. Hardy would like to see their favorite character dragged through the mud, yes.

Well,i am a fan of Black Cat as well.And i did like the stories featuring Black Cat in Superior Spider-Man.And think that the new direction for Black Cat is quite interesting.

No, you wrote that I "must not read very well" implying I lack in the ability. Here is your exact quote:

My bad.
Was not implying that you lacked in the reading department.But i see now how you could had seen what i wrote that way.
Meant to say that you just did not read what i said thus why i repeated the points about previous examples of Felicia characterisation again.

Spider-Man is not considered a "shade of grey" character and yet he has threatened others in the past (such as J.J. Jameson) and he has made deals with villains such as the Green Goblin, Venom, the Jackal, Dr. Doom, and most famously, Mephisto.
Why isn't Spidey also a crime boss? Perhaps it has something to do with motivation?

Spider-Man have not been writen in a grey area characterisation as Felicia by far.
Black Cat characterisation have been that she is a thief for crying out loud,and that goes back to her first stories.
And was Mary Jane that made the deal with Mephisto not Peter Parker.

[Frontier]

Opinions vary though.
The Superior Spider-Man stories with Black Cat were well written to me.
Other more recent stories wih Black Cat i dont know,there are still plenty of new stories featuring Felicia that i have not read,so dunno about those.

Well if we're talking about that one scene with Black Cat in Superior Spider-Man where Ock punched her and left her for the police, that was fine and made sense for the characters.

It's everything after that where things started going off the rails.

Black Cat characterisation have been that she is a thief for crying out loud,and that goes back to her first stories.

Being a thief is a whole different thing from being a murderous crime boss.

And was Mary Jane that made the deal with Mephisto not Peter Parker.

That was a revision by Marvel to try and make Peter look better by having Mary Jane be the one to push for the deal compared to the origin story.

[TheCape]

Black Cat characterisation have been that she is a thief for crying out loud,and that goes back to her first stories.

Thief doesn't equal murderous crime boss, yes Felicia is no saint and she would be the first one to tell you that, but nothing on her characther indicate that she would sink this low.

[The Mary Janes]

Well, at least we can look forward to some form of redemption for her (hopefully) in Venom Inc.!