Lemire: Writing X-Men was a 'Nightmare'

[Anduinel]

I want the New X-Men kids to have a alternate future(?) storyline where they're all older and full fledged heroing with futhaflipping Julian and Laura in full romantic swing and they can have Teen Bo in tow -- rainbow ribbon blasting the Eff outta folks' nervous systems, with her bestie Gabby doing the stabby stab.

I'd say I'll write it if you'll draw it, but I suspect neither of us has that kind of time.

[ClanAskani]

No surprise the X-editors micromanage the writers. The editors should let the writers be creative. Some of the best stuff was created because the editors didn't micromanage the writers -- e.g. Chris Claremont's, Grant Morrison's, Joss Whedon's, and the Immonen's runs.

Editors have to micromanage to keep a consistent story. Either writers have to do sufficient research or they need to have editors micromanage. Years back I remember an former X-writer complaining about having a story arc planned out then being told by editorial that there were major problems because the character's powers didn't work like that. He was pissed he wasted several days and was behind schedule and complaining about how little writers get paid and now much wasted time there is like that. But would you rather writers just be able to do anything they want - change how a character's powers work for example and ignore past continuity - because they want to plot and write as quickly as possible?

A better approach would be to have someone driving big ideas and stories and then have staff writers writing and doing the grunt work. The problem is Marvel wants to have a big name on the book.

[Chaos Reigns]

Editors have to micromanage to keep a consistent story. Either writers have to do sufficient research or they need to have editors micromanage. Years back I remember an former X-writer complaining about having a story arc planned out then being told by editorial that there were major problems because the character's powers didn't work like that. He was pissed he wasted several days and was behind schedule and complaining about how little writers get paid and now much wasted time there is like that. But would you rather writers just be able to do anything they want - change how a character's powers work for example and ignore past continuity - because they want to plot and write as quickly as possible?

A better approach would be to have someone driving big ideas and stories and then have staff writers writing and doing the grunt work. The problem is Marvel wants to have a big name on the book.

The editors barely do their jobs these days. They let contradictory material out, let writers change outcomes in the middle of a story arc don't know the lore or how characters powers work. We need new better editors and writers that share a similar plan and goal to make these comics shine. Right now we got the opposite.

[planetxmen]

We need to have Marvel put more faith into their writers and let them write an actual story. I'm so sick of the reset button.

[Calaigah]

Spencer and Zub wrote Emma just fine as a morally grey character who puts mutantkind first and foremost. It's 100% Bunn's decision to turn her into an insane Bastion ally who tried to mindrape a teenager into having sex with her.

Nope. Spencer and Zub are NOT part of the X office. Nor did they even write Emma that much.

Bunn, from the beginning, has come out as saying editorial chose his team for him and the stories.

Sina, from the Iceman series, wanted to write Emma as an ally to Bobby but was told he couldn't because editorial wanted her to be a villain.

Also, every time Bunn is asked about Emma, he's come out as saying that he has to write her with certain guidelines. You can tell he's annoyed that he has to explain why Emma is a villain, and tries to assure fans it won't last forever.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Nope. Spencer and Zub are NOT part of the X office. Nor did they even write Emma that much.

Bunn, from the beginning, has come out as saying editorial chose his team for him and the stories.

Sina, from the Iceman series, wanted to write Emma as an ally to Bobby but was told he couldn't because editorial wanted her to be a villain.

Also, every time Bunn is asked about Emma, he's come out as saying that he has to write her with certain guidelines. You can tell he's annoyed that he has to explain why Emma is a villain, and tries to assure fans it won't last forever.

Who are these people making these decisions and how do we get them fired?

[RAWRlrus]

Who are these people making these decisions and how do we get them fired?

Its called sales, and I think it's heading in that direction.

[salarta]

I think nothing can be rescued from Lemire's run, Austen at least gave us the Azazel-Nightcrawler thing, and I think he had to make the Xorn retcon, which means he gave us the good Xorn (the brother of the dead one), we saw recently in Bunn's Uncanny and Secret Empire-New Tian

Even something as small as aging up Anole and gibing him a fully developed muscular adult body, has been deleted.

Wanna add in the "at least Austen gave" part here that most of what he did with Polaris was good. Unfortunately, problems he had in writing other characters gave more of an opening for not utilizing the good of what he did with Lorna.

Who are these people making these decisions and how do we get them fired?

Its called sales, and I think it's heading in that direction.

Cliff notes thoughts of mine after reading these posts. I think it's less about "get people fired" and more about calling things out, to put it in its absolute simplest form. I think trying to get people fired is the nuclear option for the most egregious cases (e.g. sexual harassment). Pretty rare, as well it should be because making someone lose their job should never be entered into lightly.

Sales and public perception are more important elements. A person would only be at risk of losing their job from sales/public perception issues if they refuse to do anything that would improve them.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Glad he is saying this openly. Editorial is to blame for the horrible anti mutant propaganda that was EXM's first 12 issues.

Lemire did a good job after that actually and EXM post 12 is enjoyable.

[WheelchairX]

Issue #18 was a great example of showing how to write a great tie-in issue

[Mike_Murdock]

My guess is Soule felt the same and that’s why they both wrote IVX like they couldn’t care less

I thought it was blindingly obvious reading the event that Soule not only didn't care but hadn't been following it. I seriously thought the reason it was co-written is so Lemire could fill him in on what's going on.

Obviously, strict editorial interference with the X-line is something that's plagued it since the 90s if not earlier, but it seemed to not only lead to subpar books, it seemed to drive Lemire away from Marvel, which sucks.

You can only blame so much on editorial, though. Extraordinary had a lot of problems and not every single one was editorial’s fault I’m sure.

Honestly, before he wrote this, I thought the bigger issue was just that editorial put him on a book he didn't want to do. I always got the impression he wanted to do an Old Man Logan book and they only let him do it if he also agreed to do Extraordinary X-Men.

[WheelchairX]

I thought it was blindingly obvious reading the event that Soule not only didn't care but hadn't been following it. I seriously thought the reason it was co-written is so Lemire could fill him in on what's going on.

Obviously, strict editorial interference with the X-line is something that's plagued it since the 90s if not earlier, but it seemed to not only lead to subpar books, it seemed to drive Lemire away from Marvel, which sucks.



Honestly, before he wrote this, I thought the bigger issue was just that editorial put him on a book he didn't want to do. I always got the impression he wanted to do an Old Man Logan book and they only let him do it if he also agreed to do Extraordinary X-Men.

That wouldn't surprise me since his OML run was spectacular in comparison to EXM. I feel that he is more suited to solo books/ character issues where he can focus on specific things. Issue 7 and 18, I think, are great examples of this

[Narasinha]

Bunn, from the beginning, has come out as saying editorial chose his team for him and the stories.

That's not correct. What he said was that he was offered to write the new O5 book and so, obviously, the cast was pretty much defined. That was in answer to someone more or less asking him why the O5 book didn't had another cast.

It was like if a writer is offered to write a Superman book and people ask him why he didn't choose other characters for his cast.

Also, every time Bunn is asked about Emma, he's come out as saying that he has to write her with certain guidelines. You can tell he's annoyed that he has to explain why Emma is a villain, and tries to assure fans it won't last forever.

That's also not correct. What he said is that the character was like that before he started his book and he just couldn't ignore what was writen before and cancel things. The situation could change but it would have to be the result of a story, not just ignoring the current situation.

Edit: And that didn't even mean he wanted to change the situation himself. That was just the kind of empty/noncommittal answer given to fans when you don't want to upset anyone. Even Bendis was giving a lot of such answers (except when he was getting exasperated and then his answers were downright sarcastic. Like why he wasn't including Colossus in his books)

[Uncanny X-Man]

IMO, the key thing is someone--either a writer or an editor--with a consistent vision. A "plotmaster" who sits atop the franchise, sets the themes, drives the overarching narrative, and is sufficiently empowered to enforce their vision on subordinate contributors. For over a decade, from the mid-70s to the mid-80s, it was Claremont. In the 90s, it was Bob Harras. It's not clear to me that anyone has truly fulfilled that role since 2001.

With the X-Men franchise, Marvel needs to make up its mind: do they want to continue the ongoing novel that Claremont started? Or, do they want to publish episodic, continuity-light, generic superhero stories? Since Harras got fired, they've been trying to have it both ways, leaning back and forth, and making a hash of things half the time.

I tend to think the ongoing novel approach makes for richer, better stories, but it is an order of magnitude more work. It requires a commitment to consistency and, yes, continuity. It means creating and sticking to a "series bible": what the series is about, what the core themes are, who the characters are--and even more importantly--who the characters aren't. It also means telling subordinate contributors what to do and QCing their work. However, if plotmaster and subordinates aren't on the same page, aren't communicating, or just plain don't get along, it won't work.

For my part, if Marvel isn't willing to do the ongoing novel approach right, I'd rather they not do it at all. If they just want to do episodic superhero stories, they should cut the crap, drop the continuity bomb, and start over.

I have been hoping for the X-books to go back to what you call the ongoing novel approach for, well, seems like forever now. Not just the X-books mind you, I think it's actually the only approach that can make comics relevant again. Long-form storytelling and character arcs are ultimately the reason why people are invested in The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones and other long-running series, proving that if the quality is there people aren't scared away by the complexity and the number of characters involved.

With videogames, tv shows and movies doing superheroes and in a lot of cases doing them pretty good, comics have shied away from all the qualities that make them unique and superior to all the other media, instead choosing to mimic the pacing and structure of tv and films and watering down franchises with endless spin-offs and events, diluting all of their brands and focusing on very short-term cash-grabs instead of cultivating your present and future readership.

[Mike_Murdock]

That's also not correct. What he said is that the character was like that before he started his book and he just couldn't ignore what was writen before and cancel things. The situation could change but it would have to be the result of a story, not just ignoring the current situation.

While it's blatant speculation on my part, I got the impression Charles Soule wanted Emma that way because he thought it made for an interesting story with her heel turn. I don't think it was editorial on that one.