Gladiator vs Superman

[The Dork Knight]

While we are at it lest we think this is the only time Superman has reacted in a nanosecond or even had a conversation in one...

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...9019-nR1kt.jpg

https://m.imgur.com/a/MWS7r

https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...2641-Nanos.jpg

Lest we think that's the only time he reacted to time dilation

https://m.imgur.com/a/PuLOt

He also has stuff like this. I mean wally s two continent fight in two uniforms is obviously better but working live on camera in two different cities isn't too bad... while also dropping in on a conversation in a third place

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...2989-LiveT.jpg

[Captain Morgan]

Here's Waid calling Superman faster than a photon (light particle)
https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...9563-races.jpg

Waid says he can race a photon to it's target, not that he's faster than one. Again, parity to light speed, where Wally is explicitly faster than in that scene by comparison.

Which is at least not impossible. Given Superman is the only one here with actual time travel-through-speed feats albeit assisted

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...1300-bzoC6.jpg

I don't even see why that is relevant and you know it.

Superman has a better feat than Glads' FTL feat
https://m.imgur.com/a/Kizn3

Oh hey, I didn't realize that feat was post crisis. Well, that's actually a goodie by the looks of it, since it's an extended conversation happening in a fraction of a nanosecond.

...Which seems pretty SMvsFL with his other stuff.

Aside from that I find it surprising that Superman's early feats are used against him but not Gladiator. Despite there being an in comic upgrade(s) since. Yes he wasn't FTL under Byrne (though he still crossed the star system?) but under other writers he's been written a lot faster

Who is bringing up Byrne exactly? I'm not, AFAIK.

Waid, who wrote the story where he had to take speed from Wally later wrote another where he says Superman can outrace photons to their target and had him observing the movement of photons later (in heavens ladder).

Again, Waid doesn't have Superman outracing photons. He says he can race them. That strikes me as pretty deliberate language.

And that's a pretty high end portrayal of Clark's speed. If you want to talk lower showings, Grant Morrison rarely had Superman breaking Mach 5 in fights, for example.

[The Dork Knight]

I don't even see why that is relevant and you know it.

It shows Superman can at least time travel as part of a team... while Gladiator can't time travel at all and yet is faster?

The Waid thing can be interpreted that way too, sure

[The Dork Knight]

And that's a pretty high end portrayal of Clark's speed. If you want to talk lower showings, Grant Morrison rarely had Superman breaking Mach 5 in fights, for example.

But Morrison only ever wrote him in a team book for like 40 issues in 25 years of the character. The first of which had him racing/matching Wally

Which is why imo the consistent portrayal of Superman at his best is FTL given he has so many feats over the years, and is portrayed as someone who can give Wally a race multiple times under many writers

Superman/Gladiator should be fast enough to overcome time dilation without being quite in the same league as Wally and Surfer, straight up time travellers

[Cronus]

Superman has a better feat than Glads' FTL feat
https://m.imgur.com/a/Kizn3

So...the problem with this feats is....lots.

Its from Action Comics 642 IIRC. Clark was summoned by the ring as a possible alternative for a dying Hal Jordan.

1) It would be considered a time travel feat....not just an FTL reaction feat...given that everyone summoned in that scan were brought to be "inspected" within a nanosecond of time. At that time, Clark was routinely at his nerfed levels due to John Byrne. Clark could expressly not travel time as seen in Action Comics 591 when he failed to enter the time stream chasing Superboy down only a few years later. Not long after, he was flung around the time stream helplessly in Action 664. There are many more instances of Clark not being able to overcome time dilation since he was powered up (SEE: Waverider).

2) Clark was not powered up until Superman 82, volume 2. Thereafter he did things on a much larger scale and his speed increased as seen in Man of Steel 29....yet....Clark could not overcome time dilation (yet again), and that feat is an indicator that Clark is near light speed in reactions...not FTL. The feat from Action Comics 642 is from 1989...well before Clark was first powered up.

3) Everyone that was brought to be inspected within that nanosecond of time performed miraculous things due to being juiced on Oan ring energy, via Hal. I'd be hard pressed to not say that is exactly why Clark was able to freely interact within a nano second of time....being juiced on Oan energy....notwithstanding the previously described discrepancies. He even remarked at the end of the book that he was invigorated or some such...so, I'm not really buying it.

The thing with post Crisis Clark's reaction speed is that the inconsistencies aren't just random inconsistencies. They are inconsistencies that occur between very specific points within the character's continuity. I'm fine saying Clark is close to light speed in reaction time. I'd be hard pressed to say he could even match light in reaction speed.

Pre Crisis Clark? Sure, many many times light speed, mucking about in time and what not...but I'm not seeing it with post Crisis Clark.

As for these....

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...2665-extra.jpg


https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...7644-o8dxy.jpg.

In the first link, I don't see much of what Clark is doing as he disappears beyond the reader's range of vision...so...

As far as the second scan...he can certainly perceive it seems...but I don't see him reacting (physically) to anything.

Aside from that I find it surprising that Superman's early feats are used against him but not Gladiator.

I think the explanation above is clear enough. Gladiator doesn't suffer from the same continuity complexities as Clark does. The only argument I've heard against Gladiator was him being an alternate time line Gladiator in FF 339 where he performed the time dilation feat. As far as I'm aware, that time loop was closed in that story.

Despite there being an in comic upgrade(s) since. Yes he wasn't FTL under Byrne (though he still crossed the star system?) but under other writers he's been written a lot faster

Looks like I'm getting ahead of myself...

Waid, who wrote the story where he had to take speed from Wally later wrote another where he says Superman can outrace photons to their target and had him observing the movement of photons later (in heavens ladder).

Aside from the inconsistencies I described above, that isn't a reaction feat you're describing...as in....a usable feat for measuring how fast he can throw fisticuffs on rumbles. that's a statement contradicted by the things I describe above.

Not sure why Superman's better showing isn't used like Gladiator gets pass for obvious low showings (I think someone argued from an old scan that he took hours to move between cities? Yet that was ignored)

I think CBR goes by consistent high feats that aren't rife with the contradictions I describe above.

Anyway Waid also had a thing in the 90s where he would only have wally be FTL. Even when he writes his characters having conversations in attoseconds, they're still slower than light. Somehow

So....Max Mercury and Liberty Belle you're referring to from the Chain Lightning arc...were expressly sped up due to cosmic treadmill shenanigans...so....

I'm unsure why Superman's one performance against Jay is held as the end all of everything and not even the two times he outraced Bart for instance

It's consistent with the feat from MOS 29 I described. For me personally, after Clark was expressly powered up, his first high end reaction feat was the one where he could not overcome time dilation in Man of Steel 29. Since that time, there is only one other that some point to as proof of FTL reaction speed....routinely....from Adventures 603. It's a little ambiguous as I recall....I'd have to look at it again. But it seemed a contradiction to what has been previously described as a limit on Clark's reaction speed.

Just my two cents.

[Pendaran]

It shows Superman can at least time travel as part of a team... while Gladiator can't time travel at all and yet is faster?

The Waid thing can be interpreted that way too, sure

So again, you're making the exact same posts, yes?

[Pendaran]

Superman has a better feat than Glads' FTL feat
https://m.imgur.com/a/Kizn3

So, how fast does that make Deadman?

[Pendaran]

Like, I'm not replying in especial depth at this time because I'm wondering what the point is? This is the exact same stuff you've said before on this, cycled over and over. These threads happened already, for 10+ page running jags at length. This isn't especially debate so much as that you seem to let several months+ go fallow, and then we're right back to post crisis Superman, FTL+++++++ Planet busting++++++ mega brick. Your posts on this have already been replied to. I don't really feel like copy and pasting myself.

[Pendaran]

Superman has plenty of FTL feats like intercepting a ship moving at lightspeed

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...2665-extra.jpg

Tracing lightspeed signals

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...7644-o8dxy.jpg.

And more. I've provided two feats because that seems to be the standard for Gladiator but like I said thrice or even four times the feats are there for the likes of Superman. Even Wonder Woman has feats like this

https://m.imgur.com/fqPHjsG
https://m.imgur.com/Wa9OIrw

You know what, since we are reviving all this again, do you feel you can really claim you're not arguing that the speed difference between Superman and Wally West for instance is negligible as far as being remotely consistent with anything you're saying is valid feat wise?

Gladiator compared to Superman, barely exists as far as weighing his performances. That was pointed out to you merry go round #46597 of this, but we're back at it again I guess? He doesn't need a whole lot of comparative performances. Particularly when to compensate, like last time, your entire argument becomes "I'm not saying Superman is as fast as Wally West, I'm just saying that Superman is ridiculously ftl, but somehow is still a statue to the Flash, except I've also argued that actually he shouldn't be."

By the standard of your arguments, stuff like Gladiator traversing some ridiculous interstellar distance and doing so timed for the moment of Heimdall blinking his eyes fits in any of this just fine.

[Pendaran]

And more. I've provided two feats because that seems to be the standard for Gladiator but like I said thrice or even four times the feats are there for the likes of Superman. Even Wonder Woman has feats like this

https://m.imgur.com/fqPHjsG
https://m.imgur.com/Wa9OIrw

Given that you're doing your scan distortion thing again, so, how fast does that make Plastic Man given that he's flowing around their shots?

[The Dork Knight]

Here's a feat that clearly establishes Superman is faster than *nearly lightspeed*

https://static3.comicvine.com/upload...7352-nearl.jpg
https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...1428-nearl.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...0892-nearl.jpg

Aside from that Superman has sooo many feats showing him to be at least as fast as Gladiator

Catches a train that has already fallen in Metropolis, before it hits the ground.....when he started off sitting in Rome as Clark

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...9903-romet.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...3317-romet.jpg

Sees lightning in slow motion
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/x...SlowMotion.jpg

He goes to another country, gets a bottle of wine, gets back into the house, changes into Clark in time time it takes for Lois to say goodbye.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...5668-Super.jpg

Outraces a lightspeed explosion
https://imgur.com/a/5fpnT

Even Eletric Superman is explicitly FTL
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...1107-KB8gy.jpg

Has multiple examples of tracing/following light waves

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...2543-SdwG2.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...9990-BhC8t.jpg

He's outreacted Diana multiple times and she kept up with a Flash entering the speed force which requires at least lightspeed
https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...2401-wwnos.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...3177-wwnos.jpg

https://static3.comicvine.com/upload...8932-sacri.jpg

https://static4.comicvine.com/upload...4580-diana.jpg
https://static5.comicvine.com/upload...6297-diana.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8818-supeb.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...7400-supeb.jpg

Superman's outraced Bart multiple times
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...5430-Impul.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...2994-Impul.jpg

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...8795-Supes.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...3169-Supes.jpg
https://static3.comicvine.com/upload...0632-Supes.jpg

Caught up with Barry (who it must be noted later claimed he let him catch him)
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...2077-super.jpg
https://static3.comicvine.com/upload...8579-super.jpg

Later in the issue he speeds up to match perceptions with Barry who claims to be able to react in attoseconds. The whole world freezes around them

Impressed Thawne with his speed
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...9130-supes.jpg

Kept up with KC Superman who's faster than jay
https://static3.comicvine.com/upload...5071-5h8a4.jpg
https://static4.comicvine.com/upload...8459-D8uFb.jpg

Fast enough to intercept Walter West, then keeps up with him
https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...2855-Supes.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...0788-Supes.jpg

Numerous instances of him matching or keeping up with Wally, at least for a while
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...8170-supes.jpg
https://static5.comicvine.com/upload...0081-supes.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...7675-supes.jpg

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...2234-frien.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/upload...5789-frien.jpg
https://static3.comicvine.com/upload...7431-frien.jpg

hey here's the one from Morrison's run heh
https://imgur.com/a/38CXf

Superman has even outreacted Wally when he was "closer" to the target
https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...9223-speed.jpg
https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...9165-supes.jpg

Catches a crazed/possessed Wally
https://imgur.com/a/r7WEW

And again
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...3739-speed.jpg

Says he's faster than Lightray (who's at least lightspeed in reaction time) and shows it too
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...9894-zsmZv.jpg
http://imgur.com/a/vAreB

It's not just that he tags speedsters, in most of these instances he just keeps up with them on foot or by flying, unlike say Thor. Over many years he's presented as slower than Wally but faster than most other speedsters and able to keep up with a Wally not going all out



Most of the "evidence" against Superman is just a couple of statements so here are some in his favour

Here, the writer clearly says he can go FTL but it only takes him more effort
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...6971-supes.jpg

Says he can count time between nanoseconds
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...1176-51396.jpg

Lol says he can act in a femtosecond
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...7885-femto.jpg

Before Johns got his hands on Barry...
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...2319-barys.jpg

He bends time/space with his flight apparently
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...3646-CC5HA.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...4892-veloc.jpg

Thus from presnetation and statements, performances against other speedsters and straight up feats, post crisis Superman is FTL without being as fast as Wally or Surfer. Gladiator should also been in the same bracket

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

You know what, since we are reviving all this again, do you feel you can really claim you're not arguing that the speed difference between Superman and Wally West for instance is negligible as far as being remotely consistent with anything you're saying is valid feat wise?

Gladiator compared to Superman, barely exists. That was pointed out to you merry go round #46597 of this, but we're back at it again I guess? He doesn't need a whole lot of comparative performances. Particularly when to compensate, like last time, your entire argument becomes "I'm not saying Superman is as fast as Wally West, I'm just saying that Superman is ridiculously ftl"

So, essentially ... In the immortal words of Kanye Dork:

"Yo Wally, I'm real happy for you. I'mma let you finish; but Superman has some of the best FTL of all time ... some of the best FTL of all time!"

Or something like that, yea ?

EDIT: Damn it, Dork West would have been better.

[The Dork Knight]

So, how fast does that make Deadman?

As fast as all other ghosts not affected by time dilation? He's essentially operating in his own timeline, independent of the dilation

[The Dork Knight]

Given that you're doing your scan distortion thing again, so, how fast does that make Plastic Man given that he's flowing around their shots?

As fast as all the other aim dodgers not actively reacting to the blasts

[Pendaran]

But Morrison only ever wrote him in a team book for like 40 issues in 25 years of the character. The first of which had him racing/matching Wally

Which is why imo the consistent portrayal of Superman at his best is FTL given he has so many feats over the years, and is portrayed as someone who can give Wally a race multiple times under many writers

Superman/Gladiator should be fast enough to overcome time dilation without being quite in the same league as Wally and Surfer, straight up time travellers

The last sentence in your post makes no sense in logic with the first sentence in your post and is mostly your usual dodge of "I'm not actually saying Superman is as fast as the Flash, I'm just saying Superman can 'give the Flash a race'"

Just to be clear, when Wally is doing stuff so fast Superman can't even perceive him, that's not a Flash feat, that's Superman being completely jobbed out, yes? After all, he's only "not quite in the same league."

It shows Superman can at least time travel as part of a team... while Gladiator can't time travel at all and yet is faster?

When Superman is not the one doing anything to make that happen?