"Injustice & an insult to make white Superman a symbol for xenophobia"

[GodofBoredom]

This is what Phil Jimenez thinks:

https://twitter.com/iriswestbest/sta...03194772070401 (he retweeted this reply, also his statement is at the top)

Full post he retweeted:

I do like stories that address the fact that Clark is a literal "illegal alien" but I think in modern times for that metaphor to work, he cannot & should not be represented as a white man. It is an injustice & an insult to make a white man in America a symbol of xenophobia/racism

Having a white, dark haired and blue eyed alien be the metaphor for xenophobia and racism is very... mmmmm. I like Superman as a literal "illegal alien" and his creators were the children of Jewish immigrants so that metaphor does have a lot of meaning but when he's Visually represented as a very human looking white person with Christianity/Jesus parallels, then yes, the metaphor gets lost. Then it's just the typical fair of fantasy representation of Otherness using white people ��

Thoughts?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Jimenez is on point, as is the person he's retweeting. Even though his execution can be lacking, a Superman run by Jimenez would probably be one of the most critically engaging runs of the character.

He was way ahead of the curve among mainstream creators when it came to issues of social justice, and he still is.



That's from 2001. While the issue had...issues. Just compare it to what Loeb and Johns wrote a year later.



Coincidentally, just yesterday I started reading 'Re-Constructing the Man of Steel: Superman 1938–1941, Jewish American History, and the Invention of the Jewish–Comics Connection'. Which talks about some of the stuff that's come up in that twitter thread.

'Truth' kind of brought this up, with Pak taking the approach that Clark Kent had been "passing" as human, and people being mad that he tried to live as humans as one of them. Taking into account that Superman was the expression of two Jewish creators, a story like 'Truth' could have, maybe, worked as an allegorical tale of the Jewish struggle back in Siegel and Shuster's day. Someone is well liked until they are discovered to be Jewish and having kept that from the public for the sake of safety, then suddenly people turn on that person. That person used to do quite well, but after their "secret" is exposed they suddenly find themselves disempowered, and the system turns against them.

But while those issues were great, and had some of the best Superman character moments, the topic of him "passing" wasn't dealt with in any meaningful way. Superheroes will always struggle when it comes to telling stories of oppression, when you tie in their powers with the state of their oppression. It's something that can easily be disastrous.

'The American Way' approached it with concept of someone with a minority status getting superpowers, and how people in the US reacted to that.

Just a heads up, the following scan contains some antiquated racist terms.



Now I'm out of this thread before it goes to hell.:P

[Barbatos666]

Yeah they should have Doomsday or Brainiac represent immigrant struggle, these people, sigh.

[JAK]

Some of this is a "modern context" thing, some of it is a "everybody thinks racism is only a skin color" thing. Go back far enough, and you get people hating on each other for their country of origin, and they're almost all white. People today would have their head explode if they saw it. It's understandably hard to fathom today.

That said, I think Superman being a target of racism/xenophobia only plays so far. In the modern context, he is in a much more privileged physiological position than he might have been in, say, the '30s. The most you could likely mine from that is to do a more extreme version of how Lex feels: "he's not REALLY a white man, he's an alien freak. He looks like one of us, but he isn't, and that's even worse" that kinda thing. Were Superman real (for instance), the "tiki torch" crowd would only say things about him online/etc; to his face, they'd generally be VERY quiet. "You don't tug on Superman's cape," after all.

On the reverse, he can play well with the whole "I'm from another world, but look human, and have every emotion and thought just like all of you. Outer looks don't matter, inside we're all the same". Much like in many scenarios, he works best as more of a uniting force than anything, imho.

[HsssH]

I think this is very USA-centric view of things. Here in Europe people don't like people from neighbouring countries despite everyone looking very similar.

But even then, like it or not, comics (and honestly most of the media) in USA is consumed by white people. You can change stuff however you want, but it is going to stay same since white people are in majority (if I'm not mistaken it is somewhere between 60% to 70% depending on how you categorize certain groups of Hispanics) and for that to change you'll need couple more decades I think? Anyway, point is that comics are consumed by mostly white audience and it is easier to make a point about racism when victim of the racism looks like you. Purpose of the "Superman is immigrant" plot point is to teach white people about evils of racism, not black (or of some other demographic) people.

This is also the main reason why X-Men in the past worked as metaphor for racism and xenophobia. Most of the major characters were white and rather stereotypical, but they were still victims of prejudice. Due to that it was easier for white people to identify with them and notice how fucked up racism/xenophobia/whatever is.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Eh, I would say the comic fandom itself (along with geek culture in general) is evidence that these characters have failed at meaningfully challenging prejudice, and in fact have been counter-productive.

With some very rare exceptions of course.

[Kuwagaton]

These characters will generally fail at finding a way to challenge any social ill, it is a failure not exclusive to Superman.

It is indeed a very "USA" view of race and prejudice, and even as someone who lives in the US I find it to be narrow minded nitpicking. You might as well complain about the fact that he's only dated white women.

Or alternatively , invest discussion in a character of color. And no offense to Jimenez, but I don't think many people would move on to his depiction of Steel in that case.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

These characters will generally fail at finding a way to challenge any social ill, it is a failure not exclusive to Superman.

I agree.

It's a problem with mass media in general.

It is indeed a very "USA" view of race and prejudice, and even as someone who lives in the US I find it to be narrow minded nitpicking.

Superman primarily operates in the US, that's where he grew up and spends most of his time, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that he would primarily speak to US views on race and prejudice.

You might as well complain about the fact that he's only dated white women.

Yes, and that he's only dated women, and all of them having adhered to conventional beauty standards.

Or alternatively , invest discussion in a character of color.

Or both.

And no offense to Jimenez, but I don't think many people would move on to his depiction of Steel in that case.

You could actually argue that the Steel/Superwoman relationship in his Superwoman run perpetuates racism because of the power dynamic of their relationship. I.E, a white woman calling all the shots, knowing better than her black boyfriend, etc.

I would disagree, and I thought it avoided all that, especially with the inclusion of Natasha, but I can see someone making a case for it.

[sakuyamons]

Eh, I would say the comic fandom itself (along with geek culture in general) is evidence that these characters have failed at meaningfully challenging prejudice, and in fact have been counter-productive.

With some very rare exceptions of course.

You have a point, not on this forums, of course. But the nerd community is a never ending cesspool of racism and misogyny.

[DochaDocha]

Heh, I was confused for a moment. I thought it was referring to the game Injustice and that Superman himself was the xenophobic character.

EDIT: I never really thought of Superman as a victim of Xenophobia, except for Luthor's. Luthor himself can act as the embodiment of xenophobia, but throughout the most part, Clark Kent (and Superman) are accepted members of the community at large.

And I would absolutely read a Jimenez Superman book.

[Kuwagaton]

Yes, and that he's only dated women, and all of them having adhered to conventional beauty standards.

The closest it's been was the brief fling with that ruler from Bhutran. Byrne tried to argue that Lois wasn't a "model" type of beautiful, but unfortunately most comic artists indeed draw her as beautiful as they draw any woman.

But while it could make for a great plus, it's not a minus otherwise. Who you haven't dated and what you don't look like are not minuses.

Or both.

The problem to me with "meantime" arguments is that they're followed by people not caring, in significant numbers at least, about Priest writing Steel. Or followed by the huge amounts of vocal displeasure with acclaimed black writers outside of comics coming on to write Black Panther. Or how at this point, the reasonable claim would have Ewing as the main Blue Marvel writer instead of Grevioux. The complaints don't correlate with success found in attempts to respond to them.

And they don't address as much as they think. Superman as a savior, or white savior, are problems that people have. Even this Twitter mentions it. But isn't All Star perhaps the most acclaimed Superman story?

You could actually argue that the Steel/Superwoman relationship in his Superwoman run perpetuates racism because of the power dynamic of their relationship. I.E, a white woman calling all the shots, knowing better than her black boyfriend, etc.

I would disagree, and I thought it avoided all that, especially with the inclusion of Natasha, but I can see someone making a case for it.

I try to avoid being insulting about it, but that was my opinion. I dropped that title because of his Steel.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

The closest it's been was the brief fling with that ruler from Bhutran.

It wasn't even a fling was it? They hung out together and there was some flirting but I don't think it led anywhere romantically.

Byrne tried to argue that Lois wasn't a "model" type of beautiful, but unfortunately most comic artists indeed draw her as beautiful as they draw any woman.

Honestly,

But while it could make for a great plus, it's not a minus otherwise. Who you haven't dated and what you don't look like are not minuses.

Well I don't like thinking of this in terms of plus and minuses, but I do think representations of romance that hinge on conventional beauty standards are troublesome.

Real life is another matter entirely. That's something I'm going to try and avoid getting into here.

The problem to me with "meantime" arguments is that they're followed by people not caring, in significant numbers at least, about Priest writing Steel. Or followed by the huge amounts of vocal displeasure with acclaimed black writers outside of comics coming on to write Black Panther. Or how at this point, the reasonable claim would have Ewing as the main Blue Marvel writer instead of Grevioux. The complaints don't correlate with success found in attempts to respond to them.

I agree, it is a problem.

And another angle is that, while making extremely popular characters POC or LGBTQIA can be beneficial to diversity, they will also likely overshadow existing characters that are among those groups and have existed and struggled for success throughout the years.

I fall on the side of changing existing characters, but I can see why some might find it unfair that characters that have spend the majority of their history as white, or straight, or cis, are suddenly representative of an oppressed group and bring with them the popularity they achieved through belong to more privileged classes. All this while characters that already belonged those classes didn't get as many opportunities for success.

And they don't address as much as they think. Superman as a savior, or white savior, are problems that people have. Even this Twitter mentions it. But isn't All Star perhaps the most acclaimed Superman story?

It is, but it isn't perfect. Nothing is.

Another great Superman story, Birthright, which is probably the best Superman origin story has a problem of white American imperialism, whereby the plight of people in Africa and the death of one of their civil rights activists becomes a resource for the development of Superman.

I don't like using this term, but you'd be hard pressed to find media that isn't problematic in some way.

Even stories that are meant to be anti-racist, can still carry with them some level of racism.

I try to avoid being insulting about it, but that was my opinion. I dropped that title because of his Steel.

Yeah, I didn't think it approached that territory during Jimenez's run, but I definitely felt some of it in Perkin's first arc.

[Soubhagya]

Is it possible that one piece of work is both progressive and regressive at the same time? Perpetuating racism and promoting empowerment of women. I don't look deeper though.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

You have a point, not on this forums, of course. But the nerd community is a never ending cesspool of racism and misogyny.

It isn't just the blatant prejudice, but also the apathy and defensiveness.

[Agent Z]

Heh, I was confused for a moment. I thought it was referring to the game Injustice and that Superman himself was the xenophobic character.

EDIT: I never really thought of Superman as a victim of Xenophobia, except for Luthor's. Luthor himself can act as the embodiment of xenophobia, but throughout the most part, Clark Kent (and Superman) are accepted members of the community at large.

And I would absolutely read a Jimenez Superman book.

Yeah I thought that too.