"Injustice & an insult to make white Superman a symbol for xenophobia"

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Is it possible that one piece of work is both progressive and regressive at the same time? Perpetuating racism and promoting empowerment of women. I don't look deeper though.

Absolutely.

Even movements for social justice have been both progressive and regressive.

The American Civil Rights Movement combated racism, but it marginalized black women. The 2nd wave feminist movement combated sexism, but it too marginalized black women.

Those are two very basic examples. There's a lot more to it too, but I'm not the best person to articulate any of it. I'll just ramble on for a while and leave people more confused than they were before.

[Powerboy]

I think what was said is basically true.

As an aside, I was at a sci fi convention a number of years ago and sitting in the concessions (food) room. The television was on and an episode of "Fresh Prince of Bel Aire" was on. It was dealing with racism and being guilty purely by being black. Someone in the room said, "Why are we watching this garbage? Isn't there something better on?" So they found an episode of the original Star Trek and it was one that was dealing with bigotry against vulcans. Apparently, this was fine. We shouldn't hate those green-blooded, pointy-eared people but let's not get crazy here and translate that into reality." One of those situations where, to quote Sam Kinnison, "I think you people are missing the whole f**king point."

I think Superman as the ultimate immigrant may have played better in past decades and may- based on what some have said about the situation currently in same cultures- play better in some nations. In the United States, I honestly think it's about as useful as vulcans as symbols of bigotry victims or mutants. You're preaching to the choir. It doesn't translate in most people's minds to real life situations. Yes they can *say* he's an alien, etc. But what we see is a white human male. If it's a movie or show, he's played by a white male actor.

I think the Martian Manhunter serves far, far better as a symbol of an immigrant or a victim of bigotry.

I'll put it another way. If it's an immigrant from England, France, Sweden, and so on, Superman may be a great symbol of the Immigrant experience IF that immigrant is white.

If we are talking about, say, the Middle East, the Martian Manhunter is a great symbol. Maybe even from Ireland were this a century ago.

On the other hand, Superman may well be a great symbol for the person who can hide what he or she is. Someone Jewish who feels in many situations that they must hide it. Someone who is gay. Someone who maybe belongs to any religion that there are huge bigoted assumptions about, etc. The Byrne Superman when Luthor outed him as an alien is an example of this.

But the statements are generally true. If he looked like J'onn J'onzz or Steel, he wouldn't be reacted to the same and could never be the symbol he is for a huge number of people- which is depressing, frankly. On the other hand, he didn't get to choose his gender or color.

I realize that when Superman was created, there was zilch chance that Jerry Siegal would have been allowed to have his human adoptive parents be Jewish. But, today, I would personally support a restart that did something like that especially were it done well because I honestly think it is reasonable to think Siegal might have done that if he could have done it.

[Frontier]

Heh, I was confused for a moment. I thought it was referring to the game Injustice and that Superman himself was the xenophobic character.

As bad as Injustice Superman was I don't think he ever acted xenophobic.

He was a totalitarian dictator, but he didn't seem prejudiced against anyone unless they were criminals or supportive of criminals.

[The World]

Sounds like a retread of the silly explanation about why Wonder Woman couldn't be an ambassador to the UN.

Regardless I'd say they both should obsess less over what Superman can't do and stick to talking about things they actually like instead of trying to take things away from Supes. Frankly no one seems to have problems flippantly calling him a farmboy because his rocket happened to land in Kansas despite most era's giving him having a fairly deserve childhood. Pendulum swings both ways, you might not like it but Superman is the most well known immigrant and he speaks his mother's tongue. They need to get over it.

[GodofBoredom]

Sounds like a retread of the silly explanation about why Wonder Woman couldn't be an ambassador to the UN.

Regardless I'd say they both should obsess less over what Superman can't do and stick to talking about things they actually like instead of trying to take things away from Supes. Frankly no one seems to have problems flippantly calling him a farmboy because his rocket happened to land in Kansas despite most era's giving him having a fairly deserve childhood. Pendulum swings both ways, you might not like it but Superman is the most well known immigrant and he speaks his mother's tongue. They need to get over it.

On that note, since race is so important to him, I wonder if he has a problem with the character he's the biggest fan of, Wonder Woman, a white princess, being the symbol of women empowerment.

[Thor-Ul]

I think what was said is basically true.

As an aside, I was at a sci fi convention a number of years ago and sitting in the concessions (food) room. The television was on and an episode of "Fresh Prince of Bel Aire" was on. It was dealing with racism and being guilty purely by being black. Someone in the room said, "Why are we watching this garbage? Isn't there something better on?" So they found an episode of the original Star Trek and it was one that was dealing with bigotry against vulcans. Apparently, this was fine. We shouldn't hate those green-blooded, pointy-eared people but let's not get crazy here and translate that into reality." One of those situations where, to quote Sam Kinnison, "I think you people are missing the whole f**king point."

I think Superman as the ultimate immigrant may have played better in past decades and may- based on what some have said about the situation currently in same cultures- play better in some nations. In the United States, I honestly think it's about as useful as vulcans as symbols of bigotry victims or mutants. You're preaching to the choir. It doesn't translate in most people's minds to real life situations. Yes they can *say* he's an alien, etc. But what we see is a white human male. If it's a movie or show, he's played by a white male actor.

I think the Martian Manhunter serves far, far better as a symbol of an immigrant or a victim of bigotry.

I'll put it another way. If it's an immigrant from England, France, Sweden, and so on, Superman may be a great symbol of the Immigrant experience IF that immigrant is white.

If we are talking about, say, the Middle East, the Martian Manhunter is a great symbol. Maybe even from Ireland were this a century ago.

On the other hand, Superman may well be a great symbol for the person who can hide what he or she is. Someone Jewish who feels in many situations that they must hide it. Someone who is gay. Someone who maybe belongs to any religion that there are huge bigoted assumptions about, etc. The Byrne Superman when Luthor outed him as an alien is an example of this.

But the statements are generally true. If he looked like J'onn J'onzz or Steel, he wouldn't be reacted to the same and could never be the symbol he is for a huge number of people- which is depressing, frankly. On the other hand, he didn't get to choose his gender or color.

I realize that when Superman was created, there was zilch chance that Jerry Siegal would have been allowed to have his human adoptive parents be Jewish. But, today, I would personally support a restart that did something like that especially were it done well because I honestly think it is reasonable to think Siegal might have done that if he could have done it.

Superman couldn,'t be jewish...unless you could found kryptonite sccisors.

[Ascended]

Having grown up in a small, rural, poor region much like Clark's (granted mine was far worse than Smallville), I can safely say there is nothing privileged about it. Skin color doesn't mean anything when you have to decide between buying groceries, shoes for your kids, or keeping the heat and lights on. Ah, poverity; the great equalizer.

That said, no, Clark is not a great voice for The Other who looks different. He's The Other who can hide in plain sight; a large group that includes LGBT, most religions, and many people who are non-white but can pass for white, as well as first generation immigrants who might look like everyone else but don't share the history, culture, or language.

You won't see a story where people call Clark names because he looks different. What you can see are stories where Clark is walking down the street and people around him are complaining about aliens always showing up and causing problems, invading or stealing jobs, and how the government should just nuke every space ship that comes within range of the planet and build a sphere around earth to keep them out.

[Kuwagaton]

Well put, Ascended.

Well I don't like thinking of this in terms of plus and minuses, but I do think representations of romance that hinge on conventional beauty standards are troublesome.

Yeah, I had a tricky time trying to phrase it. Not a plus like "good for you" but I consider it a positive thing if we're at a point where something like Superman dating outside of what's considered a norm can be shown casually. Although the fact that we don't see it doesn't necessarily we're not there, if that makes sense. I really wouldn't mind starting over with different races or cultures and actually showing it, but it does depend on being okay with replacing Superman as he's known in the first place.

And another angle is that, while making extremely popular characters POC or LGBTQIA can be beneficial to diversity, they will also likely overshadow existing characters that are among those groups and have existed and struggled for success throughout the years.

To be honest, I'm not as interested in Black Lightning as I might have been if it weren't for Static. I never really think about it but because of that I have to agree.

I fall on the side of changing existing characters, but I can see why some might find it unfair that characters that have spend the majority of their history as white, or straight, or cis, are suddenly representative of an oppressed group and bring with them the popularity they achieved through belong to more privileged classes. All this while characters that already belonged those classes didn't get as many opportunities for success.

Changing existing characters... honestly, that's the only realistic way I can see getting enough readers to install for a character. I'm willing to fork over my favorite character because there's at least a thousand stories of Superman as he was that I still don't own, but it's kind of a dishonest tactic and thus feels a little unfair to expect.

As an aside, I was at a sci fi convention a number of years ago and sitting in the concessions (food) room. The television was on and an episode of "Fresh Prince of Bel Aire" was on. It was dealing with racism and being guilty purely by being black. Someone in the room said, "Why are we watching this garbage? Isn't there something better on?" So they found an episode of the original Star Trek and it was one that was dealing with bigotry against vulcans. Apparently, this was fine. We shouldn't hate those green-blooded, pointy-eared people but let's not get crazy here and translate that into reality." One of those situations where, to quote Sam Kinnison, "I think you people are missing the whole f**king point."

Don't want this to come off as insensitive because it sounds like a frustratingly awkward experience, but I laughed pretty hard at his.

[daBronzeBomma]

Having grown up in a small, rural, poor region much like Clark's (granted mine was far worse than Smallville), I can safely say there is nothing privileged about it. Skin color doesn't mean anything when you have to decide between buying groceries, shoes for your kids, or keeping the heat and lights on. Ah, poverity; the great equalizer.

That said, no, Clark is not a great voice for The Other who looks different. He's The Other who can hide in plain sight; a large group that includes LGBT, most religions, and many people who are non-white but can pass for white, as well as first generation immigrants who might look like everyone else but don't share the history, culture, or language.

You won't see a story where people call Clark names because he looks different. What you can see are stories where Clark is walking down the street and people around him are complaining about aliens always showing up and causing problems, invading or stealing jobs, and how the government should just nuke every space ship that comes within range of the planet and build a sphere around earth to keep them out.

QFT.

All of what you said rings true, but esp the bolded part. That's the way forward on this matter, IMHO.

It's the having to hide who you are, the forced blending into the crowd where Clark's otherness can naturally come into play.

[DochaDocha]

Having grown up in a small, rural, poor region much like Clark's (granted mine was far worse than Smallville), I can safely say there is nothing privileged about it. Skin color doesn't mean anything when you have to decide between buying groceries, shoes for your kids, or keeping the heat and lights on. Ah, poverity; the great equalizer.

That said, no, Clark is not a great voice for The Other who looks different. He's The Other who can hide in plain sight; a large group that includes LGBT, most religions, and many people who are non-white but can pass for white, as well as first generation immigrants who might look like everyone else but don't share the history, culture, or language.

You won't see a story where people call Clark names because he looks different. What you can see are stories where Clark is walking down the street and people around him are complaining about aliens always showing up and causing problems, invading or stealing jobs, and how the government should just nuke every space ship that comes within range of the planet and build a sphere around earth to keep them out.

This.

I'm not white, but I generally dislike the way "white privilege" gets used so quickly. I won't get into the whys, but I dislike the expression and think it's often counter-productive when used.

That said, regardless of your whiteness, you can still feel like an "other." Society finds a ton of ways to make you feel different, and it's certainly not limited to looks. It'd be insulting if Superman were rejected by a non-white community because of his whiteness. But in rare stories such as when he encounters a living Kryptonian, I like it when they point out he doesn't know this or that custom, or that his accent is wrong, or if he's lower class because he associates with Earthlings.

I think there are bad ways to emphasize Superman's feelings of isolation, like making him the victim of racism in a place with large non-white populations, but if you think being white disqualifies him for a lot of these stories, I'm sorry.

[HsssH]

Is it possible that one piece of work is both progressive and regressive at the same time? Perpetuating racism and promoting empowerment of women. I don't look deeper though.

I think that it is, sadly, unavoidable for the most part. Things do not exist in vacuum, if you want to empower one character then most of the time it will come at an expense of another character. "Easy solution" is to empower women against white men, but then you risk running into situation where it looks like female characters aren't really defined by their actions, but by their opposition to white men, which doesn't lead us anywhere productive I'd say since central figure remains white men. Good example of this is that terrible mini by Waid, Strange Fruit, where black characters were basically constantly talking about what white men will think about something and how they are going to show white men whats what. Either way people want comics to feature diverse cast of characters so sooner or later we will run into situations where one diversity character will have to take agency from another diversity character.

That being said I don't want this to sound like "lets not bother", its just that I think this road is way more difficult than many activists would say and I'm not sure if real equality is realistically achievable goal. But that doesn't mean that we don't need more diverse characters, its just that we have to take bad with the good.

[Flash Gordon]

Having grown up in a small, rural, poor region much like Clark's (granted mine was far worse than Smallville), I can safely say there is nothing privileged about it. Skin color doesn't mean anything when you have to decide between buying groceries, shoes for your kids, or keeping the heat and lights on. Ah, poverity; the great equalizer.

That said, no, Clark is not a great voice for The Other who looks different. He's The Other who can hide in plain sight; a large group that includes LGBT, most religions, and many people who are non-white but can pass for white, as well as first generation immigrants who might look like everyone else but don't share the history, culture, or language.

You won't see a story where people call Clark names because he looks different. What you can see are stories where Clark is walking down the street and people around him are complaining about aliens always showing up and causing problems, invading or stealing jobs, and how the government should just nuke every space ship that comes within range of the planet and build a sphere around earth to keep them out.

Perfectly said.

Smallville, KS would be a pretty poor place to grow up. He gets the isolation needed to hide who he is/will become, but I don't think the Kents have much of anything. Especially in 2017. I'd imagine Smallville to be a bleak American wasteland- not unlike 1938 Smallville I guess.

Superman is the ultimate enemy of classism. He literally cannot be moved. Lex Luthor may have all the money in the world, but he can't buy Superman. He's the great equalizer. The hero of the people. No matter who you are or where you're from, he's in your corner.

[Powerboy]

Well put, Ascended.



Yeah, I had a tricky time trying to phrase it. Not a plus like "good for you" but I consider it a positive thing if we're at a point where something like Superman dating outside of what's considered a norm can be shown casually. Although the fact that we don't see it doesn't necessarily we're not there, if that makes sense. I really wouldn't mind starting over with different races or cultures and actually showing it, but it does depend on being okay with replacing Superman as he's known in the first place.



To be honest, I'm not as interested in Black Lightning as I might have been if it weren't for Static. I never really think about it but because of that I have to agree.



Changing existing characters... honestly, that's the only realistic way I can see getting enough readers to install for a character. I'm willing to fork over my favorite character because there's at least a thousand stories of Superman as he was that I still don't own, but it's kind of a dishonest tactic and thus feels a little unfair to expect.



Don't want this to come off as insensitive because it sounds like a frustratingly awkward experience, but I laughed pretty hard at his.

Ah but it is funny because it is so ironic.

[Powerboy]

Having grown up in a small, rural, poor region much like Clark's (granted mine was far worse than Smallville), I can safely say there is nothing privileged about it. Skin color doesn't mean anything when you have to decide between buying groceries, shoes for your kids, or keeping the heat and lights on. Ah, poverity; the great equalizer.

That said, no, Clark is not a great voice for The Other who looks different. He's The Other who can hide in plain sight; a large group that includes LGBT, most religions, and many people who are non-white but can pass for white, as well as first generation immigrants who might look like everyone else but don't share the history, culture, or language.

You won't see a story where people call Clark names because he looks different. What you can see are stories where Clark is walking down the street and people around him are complaining about aliens always showing up and causing problems, invading or stealing jobs, and how the government should just nuke every space ship that comes within range of the planet and build a sphere around earth to keep them out.

Exactly. Superman works great for the "victim of bigotry who can hide in plain sight" concept. "Them Kryptonians. They're just here to steal our women- or men- and our jobs. They probably want us to all speak Kryptonian instead of English. And they're all terrorists. I mean Zod was and if one of them did it, they all did it. They're probably secretly taking over."

"Excuse me but, aren't there like three of them on the whole planet?"

"Shut up, lib-tard. Who asked you anyway?"

[Superlad93]

**** this designer "what's in and sympathetic" Get Out (the movie) bullshit that Jimenez is using. So what if he's white? I'm black, and the son of immigrants, and **** you if you're somehow insinuating that Superman can't represent how I or my parents felt/feel everyday. Are you saying that minorities are somehow too dumb to use basic empathy? Oh, lordy, how on Earth am I ever going to understand the enigma that is a fictional alien who happens to have white skin?! So, yeah, lets make him black or Hispanic or Asian because that's "in." White just isn't "fashionable" anymore, huh? **** you. My skin color isn't some popular designer shirt you can wear when the season calls for it. God, I hate this line of thinking SO much because most people who bring it up don't get how got damn racist it actually is. Oh, hey, better yet, lets make Superman racially ambiguous so he can check off all those boxes on the sensus (sarcasm. Lord have mercy this is sarcasm). Superman is white, and that's freakin' okay! The xenophobia stuff applies to Clark IN SPITE of his skin color. You confuse the issues of why and how people are prejudges towards him if you make him black or Hispanic or Asian. You deliberately shift the narrative at that point rather than making it stronger or even adding to it. I don't understand how this isn't boldface to most.

And to be very clear, the xenophobia angle is a relatively small aspect of his character. For heroes that lean into that far more effectively (and who are begging for a reevaluation), see Martian Manhunter. The fact that Superman's ultimate point as a character is far more inclusive than the just the idea of xenophobia (simply being the best version of yourself as often as you can be) is part of the reason why it doesn't matter that he's white or a even a man. For God's sake, his alien origins weren't even known to him or anyone else (thus making them a non factor) for a long stretch of time in the comics. What was being judged and sometimes persecuted were his actions and point of view. Pretty sure we all have both of those, right?

God, **** this line of thinking, and every time it comes up. It's NOT ****ing clever, groundbreaking, inclusive, or even forward thinking. It's basically nice people being unintentionally racist. My skin color isn't a got damn shirt, Jimenez.