"Injustice & an insult to make white Superman a symbol for xenophobia"

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

The thing is this is viewing through the simply views of America globally most xenophobic behavior is labeled "racism" when in fact it's usually has more to do with Nationality but the bigotry and discrimination is the same. One of the largest minority groups discriminated in the UK are Polish immigrants and many would be classified as white. In Asia there are divides due to nationality there are South Koreans and Chinese who hold bigoted views of the Japanese due to WWII war crimes and Japan's refusal to acknowledge them. There has been genocides in Africa over geography is the discrimination and violence they face less valid because it's about where they were born opposed to their skin color?

It isn't less valid, it's different. There's no denying that people will face discrimination because of their region of origin, but the way such discrimination manifests is not perfectly identical to the discrimination POC will face overall.

There's also colorism, which is another issue.

With racism within Asian countries, you don't even need to go outside specific countries. Japan for example has treated the indigenous people of the country extremely poorly.

You are right that discussions about racism and prejudice shouldn't be limited to how it works in the US, but when talking about prejudice in the US specifically, bringing up different forms of prejudice that people face in other countries only dilutes the conversation.

Within communities such as ours discussions of such prejudice tend to only come about in response to specific conversations about prejudice. It's a form of Whataboutism. Taking an important issue and using it to shut down the conversation taking place.

Think about, we've seen things like this brought up before in discussions about diversity, but how many of those people have you seen asking for portrayals of discrimination based on region, without it originating in response to something about POC?

I'd be like if there was a discussion about police brutality and killings in the US, and there's a conversation going on where people are highly critical of the police. Then someone comes in and says the police are actually way better than how people have been characterizing them because, just look at the police from Iceland who killed someone for the first time in 2013. It doesn't really add to the conversation taking place.

While these things are important, they aren't always relevant to the conversations taking place.

[Jokerz79]

It isn't less valid, it's different. There's no denying that people will face discrimination because of their region of origin, but the way such discrimination manifests is not perfectly identical to the discrimination POC will face overall.

There's also colorism, which is another issue.

With racism within Asian countries, you don't even need to go outside specific countries. Japan for example has treated the indigenous people of the country extremely poorly.

Thing is this thread was started because of the idea a white male Kyptonian shouldn't represent xenophobia yet xenophobia in most of the world isn't about race but rather religion or nationality. So honestly I don't see why Kal-El can't be a target of Xenophobia or more appropriately why he shouldn't be.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Thing is this thread was started because of the idea a white male Kyptonian shouldn't represent xenophobia yet xenophobia in most of the world isn't about race but rather religion or nationality. So honestly I don't see why Kal-El can't be a target of Xenophobia or more appropriately why he shouldn't be.

Because he primarily operates in the US, he's going to speak to US forms of oppression. Region based discrimination without racial components are far less prominent in the US. His effectiveness as a metaphor for facing the struggles of racism/xenophobia are diminished when he effectively belongs to privileged classes, and further complicating things are his powers. When you think about it, how much systemic and institutional prejudice has Superman himself had to deal with throughout his history? Sure, he's had some people fear him because he's an alien, but those are blips, and they usually come from him having powers. There have been no meaningful takes on systemic oppression the character has faced within the US due to him coming from another culture.

He can't speak for all forms of oppression anyway, no character can. So while primarily operating in the US, and being an American icon, Superman exploring forms of oppression that are virtually non-existent in the US, is more of a convenience for him and an approach more palatable to the comic fandom, because it challenges our sensibilities far less.

But going back to something I said earlier about mass media having failed to meaningfully challenge prejudice and in fact have been counter-productive, I think this is especially true of the abundance of white characters that have been portrayed as facing fictional forms of prejudice. Stuff like that has contributed to white people that don't face systemic oppression on the basis of their race, to thinking that racism against whites is at equal levels or even greater than what POC face.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/ent...b04917c594209a

What we've gotten from such representations of prejudice is this fetishized oppression, which is counter-productive when it comes to making a positive impact.

To be clear, I'm not saying all of this is due to comics and other media. I'm saying they have been contributing factors. People who think one way aren't going to read one comic that says something they don't believe, and then instantly change their mind.

The reluctance to primary incarnations of Superman not being white, is in itself evidence of how the character has failed at meaningfully challenging prejudice.

If Superman as he is now (current status quo and all), were to be in written in a way in which we are to accept him as representation of a marginalized racial class, then it only magnifies the white imperialistic aspects of the character. The systemic racism POC of face, merely becomes a resource for the enhancement of Superman's character, and the character doesn't actually benefit social justice, because he becomes a form of purely commodified social justice.

Eh, I am so ready to bail from this thread. I'm getting more caught up in this than I wanted to be. And yes, I used the same phrases over and over again, I don't have the best vocabulary. This is rambling I was referring to before. I'm not a good choice to articulate this stuff.

I stumbled on this just now. Don't know anything about the show, it's from nearly ten years back based on a google search but it's kind of amusing how all requests have sort of made their to the comics.



African-American Spider-Man? Not exactly, but Miles Morales.
Black Superman? Calvin Ellis
Black Annie? Quvenzhané Wallis

[Korath]

The concept of W.E.B. Dubois' double consciousness being filtered through a telepathic alien shape shifter seems like one of those "oh, yeah, I write for a freakin' living" idea that I sincerely pray to God I'm not the first or last to see the connection. That's not even getting into the concepts of green and white martians. There's a hilarious amount of potential for MM to tackle these issues FAR better than Superman. But, no, lets try and fit a square peg in a round hole, and then get mad at the hole for being round. MM: The Square Hole.

I think it comes up with the fact that authors aren't willing to take the risks associated with that kind of story with Martian Manhunter. Why so, I do not know. Perhaps because Superman has more legs and will be able to endure terrible stories, or because he is such an icon of pop culture that he won't face cancellation or the likes if the story isn't well received (said story being extremely difficult to write to not only be interesting, uplifting, highlighting problems and offering solutions -albeit simple/simplistic ones). Or perhaps because he is white and a human at heart, and writers feel more confident to writer him than MM because the later is a green, shape-shifting alien at heart. I can see why it would be harder to write the later in a racially charged story, even if he was meant to it. Plus, all those questions will have a heavily "US-vibe" because race and the inequalities that result from it are differently treated in various countries (France hasn't the same problems than the US, nor than the UK, etc.) and it may be less "universal" than using Superman, even if the US' cultural hegemony allows most Europeans to understand the racial problems from there.

But that's just what I think is the reason for MM relegation and Superman push to be in those kind of stories.

[HsssH]

Because he primarily operates in the US, he's going to speak to US forms of oppression.

I'm not sure that, if we drill deep enough, there really are different forms of oppression. Fundamentally it is about "the other", skin colour or religion is just an excuse.

[Joker Venom]

The closest it's been was the brief fling with that ruler from Bhutran. Byrne tried to argue that Lois wasn't a "model" type of beautiful, but unfortunately most comic artists indeed draw her as beautiful as they draw any woman.

Ed Benes, in particular, drew her being really smoking hot, on par with Wonder Woman.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I'm not sure that, if we drill deep enough, there really are different forms of oppression. Fundamentally it is about "the other", skin colour or religion is just an excuse.

Yeah, and there are types of prejudice that can affect white people, like antisemitism. But there is no systemic racism in US against white people for being white.

So if Superman were to act as this metaphor, due to his stature as a world renown icon, he would be one of the most prominent characters subject to oppression for race related reason, and for him to be white in that case and be subject to some fictional form of prejudice (fear of Kryptonian culture or something) is a poor move and will without a doubt be counter-productive.

It won't be there to actually combat prejudice, but give Superman this faux deepness as a character.

[Ascended]

**** this designer "what's in and sympathetic" Get Out (the movie) bullshit that Jimenez is using. So what if he's white? I'm black, and the son of immigrants, and **** you if you're somehow insinuating that Superman can't represent how I or my parents felt/feel everyday. Are you saying that minorities are somehow too dumb to use basic empathy? Oh, lordy, how on Earth am I ever going to understand the enigma that is a fictional alien who happens to have white skin?! So, yeah, lets make him black or Hispanic or Asian because that's "in." White just isn't "fashionable" anymore, huh? **** you. My skin color isn't some popular designer shirt you can wear when the season calls for it. God, I hate this line of thinking SO much because most people who bring it up don't get how got damn racist it actually is. Oh, hey, better yet, lets make Superman racially ambiguous so he can check off all those boxes on the sensus (sarcasm. Lord have mercy this is sarcasm). Superman is white, and that's freakin' okay! The xenophobia stuff applies to Clark IN SPITE of his skin color. You confuse the issues of why and how people are prejudges towards him if you make him black or Hispanic or Asian. You deliberately shift the narrative at that point rather than making it stronger or even adding to it. I don't understand how this isn't boldface to most.

And to be very clear, the xenophobia angle is a relatively small aspect of his character. For heroes that lean into that far more effectively (and who are begging for a reevaluation), see Martian Manhunter. The fact that Superman's ultimate point as a character is far more inclusive than the just the idea of xenophobia (simply being the best version of yourself as often as you can be) is part of the reason why it doesn't matter that he's white or a even a man. For God's sake, his alien origins weren't even known to him or anyone else (thus making them a non factor) for a long stretch of time in the comics. What was being judged and sometimes persecuted were his actions and point of view. Pretty sure we all have both of those, right?

God, **** this line of thinking, and every time it comes up. It's NOT ****ing clever, groundbreaking, inclusive, or even forward thinking. It's basically nice people being unintentionally racist. My skin color isn't a got damn shirt, Jimenez.

Dude, thank you for that. This is what I was feeling, but I felt like I couldn't post it. Thank you. <bro-fist!<

A poor white person will still have privilege that a poor person of color doesn't. Being poor does not mean racial privilege is no longer a factor.

Oh, I understand there are things in life that I have avoided because of other things that I have no control over. I've never had to worry about walking into a barber shop and them not being able to cut my hair. I've never had to hide who I was attracted to (well, not for *that* reason). I've never had a bank teller ask me if I had checked my financial decisions with my husband. And I am very happy for this, because the crap some people have to deal with.....I dont think I have the patience, empathy, or strength to suffer it. I am well aware that I've been lucky in a lot of ways. And I am aware that I have been lucky in more ways I dont even realize.

.......

I've now written ten different replies at this point, trying to get my point across without sounding combative or swearing too much (yknow, by my standards). So I'll just say this. I'm not black, gay, or female. There is bigotry I have avoided because of that and Im deeply thankful, while also being pissed at the injustices others have suffered. But dont think for a f**king second that I dont know what The Struggle is like. I know what its like to be the outcast. I know what its like to feel like the world doesnt care and actively wants to see you fail. I know what its like to feel like opportunity will never even look in your direction. I know what its like to be hungry, I know what its like to have to steal your food. I know what its like to be (literally) homeless, discarded, and unloved. I know what it feels like when the beautiful, perfect people up on their Hills look down their noses at you like you're some sort of disgusting insect that insults them just be existing.

Yes, my Struggle was different from the Struggle a PoC or woman or gay person has experienced, and in some ways mine was easier. But only in some, not in all. You'd be surprised, I think, to see how similar they are. To assume that my life was full of opportunity and success just because Im white is racist bullsh*t and I am beyond tired of this narrative people have had lately that says its okay to hate on, and write off, people like me. Racism isn't okay on any level, doesn't matter what color you are or what color I am. You dont get to make f**king assumptions.

[Ascended]

EDIT: never mind. Not worth it.

[Prime]

What is going on with this thread?? Dolores what are you trying to do here? Lets go back to loving Superman!

[Carabas]

Ed Benes, in particular, drew her being really smoking hot, on par with Wonder Woman.

Ed Benes would draw Granny Goodness smoking hot on par with Wonder Woman.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I've now written ten different replies at this point, trying to get my point across without sounding combative or swearing too much (yknow, by my standards). So I'll just say this. I'm not black, gay, or female. There is bigotry I have avoided because of that and Im deeply thankful, while also being pissed at the injustices others have suffered. But dont think for a f**king second that I dont know what The Struggle is like. I know what its like to be the outcast. I know what its like to feel like the world doesnt care and actively wants to see you fail. I know what its like to feel like opportunity will never even look in your direction. I know what its like to be hungry, I know what its like to have to steal your food. I know what its like to be (literally) homeless, discarded, and unloved. I know what it feels like when the beautiful, perfect people up on their Hills look down their noses at you like you're some sort of disgusting insect that insults them just be existing.

Yes, my Struggle was different from the Struggle a PoC or woman or gay person has experienced, and in some ways mine was easier. But only in some, not in all. You'd be surprised, I think, to see how similar they are. To assume that my life was full of opportunity and success just because Im white is racist bullsh*t and I am beyond tired of this narrative people have had lately that says its okay to hate on, and write off, people like me. Racism isn't okay on any level, doesn't matter what color you are or what color I am. You dont get to make f**king assumptions.

And that is not what white privilege means.

It doesn't mean someone that is white hasn't struggled, and it doesn't mean that all white people live better lives than any POC. What it means is that their struggles are in spite of being white, not because of it. There is no racism against white people, but there are other forms of oppression they can be subject to.

What you are describing is not systemic racism against white people, but classism, class inequality and wealth inequality.

Did you check the link I provided? It goes all over this, and talks about why living in poverty does not mean that white people don't have white privileged. Again, it's not some automatic guarantee at a life of luxury and convenience.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

What is going on with this thread?? Dolores what are you trying to do here? Lets go back to loving Superman!

[Ascended]

And that is not what white privilege means.

It doesn't mean someone that is white hasn't struggled, and it doesn't mean that all white people live better lives than any POC. What it means is that their struggles are in spite of being white, not because of it. There is no racism against white people, but there are other forms of oppression they can be subject to.

What you are describing is not systemic racism against white people, but classism, class inequality and wealth inequality.

Did you check the link I provided? It goes all over this, and talks about why living in poverty does not mean that white people don't have white privileged. Again, it's not some automatic guarantee at a life of luxury and convenience.

Im not saying I struggled because of my race. I know that's classism. I apologize if I made that unclear in my post. And I also tried to express that I am aware of the privilege I have benefited from, despite the social class I was born into.

And no, I didnt check the link. No offense, but as soon as you said racism doesnt exist for white people I basically wrote off everything else.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

That's the definition of racism. Doesnt say anything about it being okay to be racist if you're not white. I will not accept any excuse for blanket hate, regardless of where its coming from.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Im not saying I struggled because of my race. I know that's classism. I apologize if I made that unclear in my post. And I also tried to express that I am aware of the privilege I have benefited from, despite the social class I was born into.

And no, I didnt check the link. No offense, but as soon as you said racism doesnt exist for white people I basically wrote off everything else.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

That's the definition of racism. Doesnt say anything about it being okay to be racist if you're not white. I will not accept any excuse for blanket hate, regardless of where its coming from.

That's a simplistic and diluted definition of racism that ignores the series of intersecting social systems that exist and how racism manifests itself within a systemic and institutional framework.

It doesn't mean that people can't hate someone for being white, or that it's ok, but it's a casual use of the term and calling it racism is counter-productive when it comes to combating racism.

It's played a part in why people can get defensive when terms like white privilege come up. It doesn't even account for discrimination that aren't framed as evidence of one race being superior, or that people can perpetuate racism against their own race.

Of course people can be racist even if they aren't white, this came up before with how Japan has treated its indigenous people.

When I speak of racism, I speak of institutional racism.