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  1. #1336
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    It's incredible how versatile Geoff Johns is, I was just reading a giant Twitter thread in which he's blamed for mucking with the original visions of David Ayers & Zack Snyder on Justice League & Suicide Squad, and in the very next tab I get to read Rich Johnson complaining about how Johns's original vision for Rebirth has been mucked with. Say what you will about Johns, he's got an uncanny knack for simultaneously being both the hero and villain to different segments of DC fans.

    I think Doomsday Clock's ability to be whatever big continuity changing event people thought it was going to be sailed a long time ago, and I'm not even sure that is what Johns wanted his story to be to begin with. In every interview I've read, he didn't seem all that interested in the continuity ramifications of Doomsday Clock, but rather telling a story good enough to be seen as a worthy sequel to Watchmen. In that respect, how well #12 is received will tell that tale.

    If the original purpose of Rebirth & Doomsday Clock was to restore as much of the classic Pre-Flashpoint DCU as possible, then that goal has already been accomplished. There's clearly another big cosmic crisis afoot that will sort any remaining confusion, which will no doubt make some parts more confusing while trying to clean up the rest.

    I would have loved if Doomsday Clock had come out in a more timely fashion and everything that Rebirth was supposed to do gone according to whatever plan Johns may or may not have even had. I've yet to hear from anyone who would actually know what that plan was exactly, but I'm sure it would have been cooler than watching The Batman Who Laughs running around the DCU turning creatively struggling characters into 90s emo versions of themselves.

    But I can't really begrudge Didio for moving on with Scott Snyder, just as I can't begrudge Johns for recutting Justice League or Suicide Squad. WB wanted Suicide Squad to be more like Guardians of the Galaxy and Justice League to be more like Avengers, so that's exactly what Johns delivered, under extraordinarily difficult circumstances. Similarly, Didio couldn't just let the whole DCU line tread water until Johns finished Doomsday Clock. If I had to choose between Johns or Didio to be in charge of the DCU, I'd pick Johns without even thinking about it, but he's not. Plus, Johns is currently too busy being in charge of most of the live-action DCU to even do the job.

  2. #1337
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    When all is said and done you know that in a way DC threw Johns under the bus after the failure of Justice League or maybe WB/DC just set him up for failure in the first place given how they would not budge on moving the date and wanting to earn that extra payday ?

    Still maybe if Geoff Johns hadn't gotten involved in Justice League in the first place, then this mess would have been less impactful.

    Also I place part of the Blame of Didio over wanting to get his way ....AGAIN!!! Even though it's partly his fault that Rebirth was made in the first place.

  3. #1338

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    Interesting rumor about DDC's place in continuity:

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/09...edium=facebook

  4. #1339
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Interesting rumor about DDC's place in continuity:

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/09...edium=facebook
    So either Rich Johnston is basing his theories on my posts here and crediting me as a "senior DC source" (I wouldn't put it past him \_(ツ)_/) or whatever he's been hearing pretty much matches up with lots of the stuff I and others hypothesized.

    Interesting.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 09-15-2019 at 05:00 PM.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  5. #1340
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    So either Rich Johnston is basing his theories on my posts here and crediting me as a "senior DC source" (I wouldn't put it past him \_(ツ)_/) or whatever he's been hearing pretty much matches up with lots of the stuff I and others hypothesized.

    Interesting.
    I was reading an interview with Chris Roberson last week and he talked about how everyone at DC has to sign NDAs these days, so the likelihood of anyone going on the record about what actually happened with Doomsday Clock is pretty slim. Unfortunately, that means we'll be stuck reading tea leaves and relying upon Rich Johnson's clickbait-y rumors for the foreseeable future.

  6. #1341
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I was reading an interview with Chris Roberson last week and he talked about how everyone at DC has to sign NDAs these days, so the likelihood of anyone going on the record about what actually happened with Doomsday Clock is pretty slim. Unfortunately, that means we'll be stuck reading tea leaves and relying upon Rich Johnson's clickbait-y rumors for the foreseeable future.
    Ah, the NDA thing started at least at the time the New52 was happening. But I'm sure Ritch still has his sources. (But we should stop talking about him. He has an habit of popping up on the boards whenever we say his name too much! XD)
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  7. #1342
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Ah, the NDA thing started at least at the time the New52 was happening. But I'm sure Ritch still has his sources. (But we should stop talking about him. He has an habit of popping up on the boards whenever we say his name too much! XD)
    This interview was around the time of Before Watchmen, which I think was right before the New 52, and Roberson said this was a new policy, so my guess this is something started around 2010, which makes all the leaks that Beetlejuice’s managed to nab even more impressive, since anyone caught giving him info could face serious legal consequences.

    Given all the unflattering rumors swirling around that time, it makes sense that DC (and Marvel) would want to lock down all the industry gossip that was spreading so easily online. Those were the days when creators were regularly and openly trashing Marvel head honcho Bill Jemas for his many, many idiotic decisions. I can certainly understand why Diane Nelson (not to mention Didio) wanted to shut that down at DC. I believe the whole EVS situation also prompted Nelson to impose guidelines for creators when interacting with fans on social media.

    The long and the short of it is that nobody is going to be able to talk about any of the chaos at DC over the past few years, unless it’s someone like Morrison, whose got enough clout to say whatever he damn well pleases with no fear of repercussions. Granted, even Morrison didn’t go as far as Waid in his AICN interview.

  8. #1343
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    The long and the short of it is that nobody is going to be able to talk about any of the chaos at DC over the past few years, unless it’s someone like Morrison, whose got enough clout to say whatever he damn well pleases with no fear of repercussions. Granted, even Morrison didn’t go as far as Waid in his AICN interview.
    Ah, that's debatable. I have no idea about the what the NDA's cover or don't (or even if they're the same contract for all personnel), but I suspect they're mainly focused on non-published material. You can still catch the the behind the curtains shenannigans now and then with some of the more outspoken people (hell, Chris Priest's blog around the time of Lazarus contract was very interesting).

    PS: Morrison will never burn bridges with DC. It's his home, for all intents and purposes.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  9. #1344
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    I'm ok with DC telling stories that end up right back where they started. Its worked for Marvel for quite some time. Not every big story has to be a world-changer.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  10. #1345
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Ah, that's debatable. I have no idea about the what the NDA's cover or don't (or even if they're the same contract for all personnel), but I suspect they're mainly focused on non-published material. You can still catch the the behind the curtains shenannigans now and then with some of the more outspoken people (hell, Chris Priest's blog around the time of Lazarus contract was very interesting).

    PS: Morrison will never burn bridges with DC. It's his home, for all intents and purposes.
    Agreed about Morrison, but I don't think he has much fear of speaking his mind, either, because he knows he's beloved enough within the industry and has no desire to kiss anyone's ass. The same is probably true for Priest, who has always been shockingly honest about his work and the editorial realities of working on work for hire characters. Although he hasn't been quite that forthcoming on his blog anymore after the whole Lazarus debacle blew up in everyone's faces. Maybe he got some pushback for that afterall.

    I also have no idea what the exact details of the NDAs Roberson was referring to entail. I'm sure there's different ones for editors and freelancers. Here's the exact quote from that interview.

    "But hand in hand with that there's been this awareness on the part of DC, it seems, over the course of the last few years that they need everyone to present a kind of unified front. And so you would get things like a few years ago before he passed away, Dwayne McDuffie was fired from DC for having the temerity in public on a message board saying that a plot point was not his idea but editorial suggestion. He didn’t argue with it, he didn’t complain, he merely answered a fan, saying, I was going to do something different but these characters belong to them. Now that can’t happen, because everybody that works on DC work-for-hire projects has to sign a non-disclosure agreement, and legal action can be taken if they say something even as innocuous as I didn’t want those two characters to date or whatever the case may be."


    I'm not sure how this lines up with the fact that several creators, such as Gail Simone, Tom King and others, have managed to get away with spilling the beans about various editorial idicts without any legal repercussions though. My guess is it goes back to what I was saying about Morrison & Preist, in that they have already have enough clout in the industry that DC wouldn't risk the blowback of trying to enforce those NDAs.

    I mean, around the time the New 52 started really coming off the rails, you had creator after creator fleeing DC like a leaky ship, each telling a new horror story of editorial incompetence, interference, and indecision. Wasn't there another rumor that Nelson had Didio personally apologize at the DC creative summit for how bad it had gotten around the time of DCYou? Maybe Nelson & Didio realised that suing anyone for breaching their NDAs would alienate the entire freelance community within the industry and drive everyone to Marvel.

    I suppose if Johns really wanted to air any dirty laundry he has with DC, he could probably get away with it, but I suspect he'd want to wait until all his various projects with DC are finished, so as not to screw over Gary Frank, Jason Fabok, & Dale Eaglesham (all of whom have no doubt been affected by Johns's busy Hollywood schedule). If we see anything about Johns signing with Marvel, all bets are off, and Rich Johnson's gossip boner will grow ten sizes on that day

  11. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I'm ok with DC telling stories that end up right back where they started. Its worked for Marvel for quite some time. Not every big story has to be a world-changer.
    I'm of the same mind. I don't need Doomsday Clock to be yet another continuity clean-up story. The continuity elements of what Johns & Frank are doing are certainly compelling, but mostly because of how they've informed the story and the characters' motivations, not because they're going to put some comics back into continuity again.

  12. #1347
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    Doomsday Clock is non-canon?
    Or will it be rewritten by the cause in Doomsday Clock#12

  13. #1348

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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Doomsday Clock is non-canon?
    Or will it be rewritten by the cause in Doomsday Clock#12
    It's canon mostly be default, based on the fact that it tied so heavily into Rebirth.

    Had it been coming out today versus nearly 2 years ago when it started? I doubt it would be canon.

  14. #1349
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I'm ok with DC telling stories that end up right back where they started. Its worked for Marvel for quite some time. Not every big story has to be a world-changer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I'm of the same mind. I don't need Doomsday Clock to be yet another continuity clean-up story. The continuity elements of what Johns & Frank are doing are certainly compelling, but mostly because of how they've informed the story and the characters' motivations, not because they're going to put some comics back into continuity again.
    IF it was originally sold as a continuity fix, it should fix continuity,

    Nothing wrong with being just a story, but in tis particular case it's a crappy move.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  15. #1350
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    IF it was originally sold as a continuity fix, it should fix continuity,

    Nothing wrong with being just a story, but in tis particular case it's a crappy move.
    In all the interviews with Geoff Johns I've read, he wasn't selling Doomsday Clock as a continuity fix at all. If anything, he was downplaying that element from the beginning. Granted, he also kept saying it wasn't a sequel to Watchmen, which this story most obviously is

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