Readers of Doomsday Clock all SPOILERS thread

[Slade]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember correctly Dr. Manhattans first appearance in all of this was back at the end of Darkseid War, where he killed Owlman and Metron. Then we see him in the DC Rebirth special where he kills Pandora. All three characters: Metron, Pandora, and Owlman seemed to know who he was. Although that could be because of the mobius chair that Owlman and Metron sat on, which gives infinite knowledge. It could be said that Dr. Manhattan was the outside force that caused Pandora to merge the timelines creating the new 52. But this issue of DDC went against that. Are these plot strings something I should give up on, or do you think Geoff Johns will resolve them?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember correctly Dr. Manhattans first appearance in all of this was back at the end of Darkseid War, where he killed Owlman and Metron. Then we see him in the DC Rebirth special where he kills Pandora. All three characters: Metron, Pandora, and Owlman seemed to know who he was. Although that could be because of the mobius chair that Owlman and Metron sat on, which gives infinite knowledge. It could be said that Dr. Manhattan was the outside force that caused Pandora to merge the timelines creating the new 52. But this issue of DDC went against that. Are these plot strings something I should give up on, or do you think Geoff Johns will resolve them?

How did this issue go against that? Manhattan said in this issue that he had begun tampering with the DCU and that he had discovered that the DCU was fighting back. There was no real need to go over each instance again. All the stuff with Pandora was a part of that. Same deal with Owlman and Reverse-Flash. It's possible that they might get mentioned, but their purpose within this story has already been fulfilled. They were meant to set up Manhattan as this big looming threat and then they got killed off before they could warn anyone. They were examples of the DCU fighting back. I think the whole Mr. Oz & Flashpoint Batman subplot will get elaborated on more, but I don't expect to anything further about Pandora.

[Slade]

How did this issue go against that? Manhattan said in this issue that he had begun tampering with the DCU and that he had discovered that the DCU was fighting back. There was no real need to go over each instance again. All the stuff with Pandora was a part of that. Same deal with Owlman and Reverse-Flash. It's possible that they might get mentioned, but their purpose within this story has already been fulfilled. They were meant to set up Manhattan as this big looming threat and then they got killed off before they could warn anyone. They were examples of the DCU fighting back. I think the whole Mr. Oz & Flashpoint Batman subplot will get elaborated on more, but I don't expect to anything further about Pandora.

Didn’t this issue reveal that Dr. Manhattan created the New 52, when he moved the lamp from Alan Scott? Yet we all know Pandora merges the time lines creating the new 52 after Barry Allen made them weak enough with what he did during Flashpoint. That is how this issue goes against that. It tells us that Dr. manhattan was the one who created it instead of Pandora. I forgot about Reverse-Flash, but owlman and Metron seemed to know who add manhattan was. I want to know how they knew who he was. If the answer is because if the möbius chair then that’s good enough for me. Pandora also knew Dr. manhattan enough to describe all his characteristics how did she know? You’re saying it’s all apart of the looming threat that was Dr manhattan which I understand I guess, but I want details.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Didn’t this issue reveal that Dr. Manhattan created the New 52, when he moved the lamp from Alan Scott? Yet we all know Pandora merges the time lines creating the new 52 after Barry Allen made them weak enough with what he did during Flashpoint. That is how this issue goes against that. It tells us that Dr. manhattan was the one who created it instead of Pandora. I forgot about Reverse-Flash, but owlman and Metron seemed to know who add manhattan was. I want to know how they knew who he was. If the answer is because if the möbius chair then that’s good enough for me. Pandora also knew Dr. manhattan enough to describe all his characteristics how did she know? You’re saying it’s all apart of the looming threat that was Dr manhattan which I understand I guess, but I want details.

Both are true. Dr. Manhattan moved the lantern and let Alan Scott, thereby altering history because GL was the linchpin of the JSA. Without him, the JSA became a clandesdine group that never operated in the open and all memory of them was erased by Johnny's Thuderbolt. As a result of that change (and however many other changes Manhattan was making), Pandora merged the DCU with Vertigo and Wildstorm in order to strengthen it against this attack. All this created the New 52.

[Slade]

Both are true. Dr. Manhattan moved the lantern and let Alan Scott, thereby altering history because GL was the linchpin of the JSA. Without him, the JSA became a clandesdine group that never operated in the open and all memory of them was erased by Johnny's Thuderbolt. As a result of that change (and however many other changes Manhattan was making), Pandora merged the DCU with Vertigo and Wildstorm in order to strengthen it against this attack. All this created the New 52.

Ah ok, so pretty much Dr. Manhattan has been observing the DC universe for quite some time now. I wonder what his thoughts were during Final Crisis.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Ah ok, so pretty much Dr. Manhattan has been observing the DC universe for quite some time now. I wonder what his thoughts were during Final Crisis.

Thanks to his unique view of time, he has probably seen more of the DCU's history than any other being.

[Slade]

Thanks to his unique view of time, he has probably seen more of the DCU's history than any other being.

Fascinating, my knowledge of Dr. Manhattan is extremely limited. I only read Watchman after Darkseid War, can’t wait to see how this ends.

[krazijoe]

WTF did I just read? Mind Blown...

[krazijoe]

The fans ARE the metaverse. We force the change with our buying habits, social media and other ways we make DC adapt to what we think of their Universe.

[adkal]

There were a couple of mistakes on page 6, weren't there? (Or one that had a knock-on effect). It should probably have been 'January 19th, 1930'.

Nitpick, but it threw me when I was reading the issue.

[failo.legendkiller]

After the pain and suffering of Heroes in crisis I needed some time to get a comic book in my hands.
Luckily Doomsday Clock is the next one.
Loved every single page of this issue, I really needed something like that recalling years of great publication and how much I love Dc and his characters.
I’m wondering how could two events as these can be part of the same universe?
Which is the guideline Dc will follow in the future?
HIC screams Dan DiDio over it, as Doomsday Clock is Johns vision of DCU.
Sadly the first one seems to be the winner.

[Dataweaver]

The fans ARE the metaverse. We force the change with our buying habits, social media and other ways we make DC adapt to what we think of their Universe.

I'm frankly a bit surprised at how Morrison-esque Johns' writing in Doomsday Clock is. That said, my understanding is that the Metaverse is closer to “the main universe that DC Comics publishes”. In terms of Morrison's Multiverse, it's been long established (as far back as the road to Flashpoint) that changes to Earth-0 are echoed through the Multiverse; after all, that was the justification of completely revamping all 52 Earths in the wake of Flashpoint (some more radically than others, admittedly; Earth 2 underwent the most drastic changes of all of them).

What you're talking about is more a matter of how Earth-33 interacts with Earth-0 (and the other Earths), which is what Multiversity was all about.

Frankly, what I got it of this issue was three things: a new bit of terminology (“the Metaverse” as the new term for Earth-0), the reveal that Manhattan has been in the Metaverse since the Golden Age, and the reveal that he has been immune to the continuity reboots; so he personally remembers the Golden Age Superman, the Silver Age Superman, the Post-Crisis Superman, and the post-Infinite Crisis Superman. And, of course, the New 52 Superman, which was his goal in meddling with the timeline.

Of course he's baffled by the Metaverse: the whole point of his story arc in Watchmen was that the timeline was fixed and he was merely along for the ride. He gets to the Metaverse and finds himself in a reality that's frequently revising and refining itself. The notion of a timestream that's mutable is alien to him. (Not to mention the inherent decency of its inhabitants; his own universe is inhabited by cynical bastards.)

And for what it's worth, moving Alan Scott's Lantern wasn't the only thing he did to create the New 52. That was the change that had the biggest butterfly effect. But he also killed the Kents, and probably made a number of other changes here and there. This issue focuses mainly on what he did to the JSA and Superman, and implies that most of the rest was fallout from those changes; but it's still possible that he meddled with more than just them.

[Dataweaver]

After the pain and suffering of Heroes in crisis I needed some time to get a comic book in my hands.
Luckily Doomsday Clock is the next one.
Loved every single page of this issue, I really needed something like that recalling years of great publication and how much I love Dc and his characters.
I’m wondering how could two events as these can be part of the same universe?
Which is the guideline Dc will follow in the future?
HIC screams Dan DiDio over it, as Doomsday Clock is Johns vision of DCU.
Sadly the first one seems to be the winner.

That does appear to be the case right now. That said, I suspect that Didio overreached with HiC; there's already a massive backlash against it off the sort that has historically lead to stories being walked back, and there's a decent chance that Didio's bosses will sit up and take notice as a result. Frankly, the delays in Doomsday Clock may be a blessing in disguise: if Johns had been holding to his original publishing timeline, Doomsday Clock would be over by now and the likes of HiC would be burying it. As things stand, the remaining issues of Doomsday Clock can be used as a course correction for DC — if Corporate give Johns the go-ahead to fix Didio's mess.

[Dataweaver]

I just noticed a subtler change that Johns introduced: according to DC#10, there was a Justice Society in the Metaverse during the Silver Age timeline. This wasn't the Earth 2 Justice Society: the whole narrative is centered entirely around Primary Earth's timeline, for one thing, and Superman was removed from the team's roster (when his debut moved from 1938 to 1956), for another. They may have been the “covert mystery men” that Wally described in DCU: Rebirth, explaining why the Silver Age superheroes never heard of them (think JSA: Liberty Files); and it wasn't until the First Crisis merged Earth 2 into the Metaverse that they regained their Golden Age status as the first superheroes; but they've always been present in the Metaverse's timeline, right up until Manhattan murdered Alan Scott and created the New 52.

[ducklord]

I just noticed a subtler change that Johns introduced: according to DC#10, there was a Justice Society in the Metaverse during the Silver Age timeline. This wasn't the Earth 2 Justice Society: the whole narrative is centered entirely around Primary Earth's timeline, for one thing, and Superman was removed from the team's roster (when his debut moved from 1938 to 1956), for another. They may have been the “covert mystery men” that Wally described in DCU: Rebirth, explaining why the Silver Age superheroes never heard of them (think JSA: Liberty Files); and it wasn't until the First Crisis merged Earth 2 into the Metaverse that they regained their Golden Age status as the first superheroes; but they've always been present in the Metaverse's timeline, right up until Manhattan murdered Alan Scott and created the New 52.

The JSA meta-history gets a little squishy when you think about it too long:

1. 1938 - The original Metaverse - Kal-L debuts, joins the JSA as an honorary member a couple years later.
2. 1961 - Flash of Two Worlds. The original metaverse is shunted over to Earth-2, where the orginal Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman remain JSA members in good standing. Earth-1 is now the Metaverse. Superman debuted, apparently, in 1956. There is no longer a JSA in the Metaverse/Earth-1.
3. 1986 - Crisis on Infinite Earths. The Metaverse becomes a mashup of Earths 1,2,4,S, and X. Superman debuted a few years ago. There IS a JSA in the Metaverse, but Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman weren't part of it. There aren't any parallel universes to be affected by the Metaverse.
4. 2005ish - Infinite Crisis/52/Final Crisis - Activities in the Metaverse spawn a renewal of parallel universes, and are in a state of flux.
5. 2011 - Flashpoint - Dr. Manhattan does some stuff to the Metaverse. The multiverse shifts. The JSA disappears from the Metaverse, as does the Legion. Heroes all independently decide to wear high collars for no good reason.
6. 2016 - Rebirth - The Metaverse, reacting to Manhattan's "outside" influence, begins to react. Signs of the JSA's return begin to pop up.

Basically, there WAS a period, from 1961 to 1986, when there wasn't a JSA in the Metaverse, because they were all chilling on Earth-2. Then they returned to the Metaverse after the CoIE, only sans Superman (and others). Johns, I think, kind of skipped that period, 'cause it's even harder to explain.