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  1. #1291
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Bolded, I was afraid of that. Well, I'm a Trade crowd anyway, my purchase has never affected DC sales, and it's pretty clear the past few years that I'm not exactly DC's target audience. What I want is... if they do want to make a shared universe then they need to be consistent about it, and if they don't wanna be consistent, then they shouldn't make a shared universe... but even then I still don't have enough disposable income to get all of them if they are a shared universe... so it's fine.

    I guess if the Watchmen are just symbolic I can be fine with it... it's the impression that they're blaming the Watchmen that rubs me the wrong way...

    When I see Watchmen I think Alan Moore, not Didio. So I still think that's still not... I get what you're explaining but I don't think they're using the right characters.

    I don't know if there's an omnipotent character in DC that they can use that makes people think of Didio though.

  2. #1292
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Well shared universes arenít consistent and never have been. Youíve got too many writers for everything to line up 100% perfectly. The closest weíve ever gotten to that was when Lee and Kirby were pretty much singlehandedly writing every Marvel book, but since then itís been a mess of contradictions and retcons and reboots at both companies. Thatís something you have to accept if you want to engage with the Big 2.

  3. #1293
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Yes, well, I could also do with fewer books and fewer writers. Makes it more affordable to follow everything. Hehe.

  4. #1294
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yes, well, I could also do with fewer books and fewer writers. Makes it more affordable to follow everything. Hehe.
    This is generally the best way to approach it. You shouldn't ever feel compelled to read a book that isn't working for you simply because you think it's important. The internet is full of websites doing articles that recap everything important happening with these big events anyways.

    As a general policy, just stick to the books and creators who you enjoy, and don't worry too much about the larger universe. Long-running shared continuities like DC & Marvel are always a mixed bag, so it's best to ignore the stuff that isn't working for you. For instance, I don't think I've bought an issue of Suicide Squad since Ostrander left and I don't think I've missed a thing

  5. #1295
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Bolded, I was afraid of that. Well, I'm a Trade crowd anyway, my purchase has never affected DC sales, and it's pretty clear the past few years that I'm not exactly DC's target audience. What I want is... if they do want to make a shared universe then they need to be consistent about it, and if they don't wanna be consistent, then they shouldn't make a shared universe... but even then I still don't have enough disposable income to get all of them if they are a shared universe... so it's fine.
    Eh, even if DC dropped the shared universe today, you still wont get consistency. Even if each book only had to deal with the continuity in its own pages.....you've got too many writers, too much individual history, for consistency. I mean, if Action Comics only has to deal with what's happening in Action Comics, the next guy to take over writing is still going to approach things in a different way, and their approach is going to contrast (to one degree or another) with the current writer. And that's not even getting into whether the next writer will want to do something completely, utterly different that'll change the entire vibe of the book completely.

    We can find consistency in things like the shows and movies, where you have a finite number of people working on the project through it's entire lifespan, but we'll never have consistency in the ongoing publications.

    I guess if the Watchmen are just symbolic I can be fine with it... it's the impression that they're blaming the Watchmen that rubs me the wrong way...
    Well, I mean, inside the pages they're blaming the Watchmen. And there's some subtext here about how the deconstructionist books like Watchmen (and DKR and others) have brought the industry to this point (which isn't blame so much as just looking at history for what it is). But unless they were gonna go full-on Morrison with it, the odds of this story putting Didio (or any other real person) in the story itself wasn't ever gonna happen.

    And again, this is a book DC wants to be able to put on the shelf and market as a Watchmen sequel. It's more about those long-term trade sales than anything else. Johns could've used virtually any reality warper villain for the story of DC's broken continuity if he had wanted to (Extant, Parallax, Time Trapper, Dominus, Darkseid, etc). This was about the business end of things and the desire to have an evergreen collection on the shelf that can piggyback on Watchmen's success.

    When I see Watchmen I think Alan Moore, not Didio. So I still think that's still not... I get what you're explaining but I don't think they're using the right characters.
    For the story itself? Probably not; the Watchmen aren't easy, smooth additions to the DC cosmology. But for the trade sales? Watchmen is still a strong seller decades later. DC wants another taste of that. Which is why they're using Manhattan and not Time Trapper.

    I don't know if there's an omnipotent character in DC that they can use that makes people think of Didio though.
    I'm not sure if the meta is actually aimed that directly at any one particular person (maybe it is, I'm not in the DC office). I think it's more about the general tug-of-war management has been in over DC's direction. We're using Didio as a kind of shorthand here, because he's not the only guy who wants to move the DCU in that grim-dark direction, nor is Johns the only guy who wants to keep things upbeat and optimistic. But typing all that out takes a lot longer than just writing "Didio" or "Johns" yknow?
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  6. #1296
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Jon was attracted to the DC Universe for reasons he did not know. We know from Watchmen that he was seeking a world "less complicated" but it seems like he found just the opposite. Manhattan probably thinks he is here because of Superman. However, I believe Manhattan is wrong and this confrontation with Supes will end up being a distraction. Just got a feeling that the JSA, and probably the original Green Lantern, is going to end up being the key to all this instead of Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Osterman wasn't really shown to be inhuman before his accident. Perhaps a bit socially awkward, but definitely a human personality. Moore's portrayal was one which expressed Dr. Manhattan's inumanity as a function of both his power and his new outlook on the world and its sciences. The DC Universe attracted Jon and the thought had been expressed that it was due to the preponderance of super-powered individuals allowing Jon to find similar lives to feel less alone. Outside of Carver Colman, though, Jon's interacted very little. One might use thae All-Star 3 cover on DClock 10's variant as being a sign of his desires, but with the JSA, Jon's taken an academic examination of the world and its constant crisis caused changes.

    The scene with Marionette and her yet unborn child not being killed is an indicator that he isn't totally removed from human feelings, even if his motivation is not upsetting a future event. Generally though, I'm expecting a set conclusion to Dr. Manhattan's story Does he go out like Rorschach regaining signs of humanity and sanity at the end, or something possibly more tragic, we need to wait (yes, I know. we'll discuss this elsewhere) until DClock 12.
    After Osterman's death, he was reborn and lost his identity. But ultimately he went back to being human because thats all he knew. He became Dr. Manhattan because having an identity and joining a supergroup was the human thing to do. Timing is difficult to pin down in Watchmen, but I believe Vietnam was his big turning point. He was there in the first place specifically to interfere in matters. But by the end he lets the pregnant woman die as an observer. Later he almost killed Laurie accidentally on Mars before he remembered that humans had to breathe. Some amount of Osterman is always in there, but at the end of Vietnam Manhattan purposefully removed himself from humanity because he discovered the scope of what he could really do if he set his mind to it. A flawed human can't have that kind of power - so he deliberately tried to become "other"

    He still has had human moments - Killing Rorschach being the main one after his change in attitude. I believe when he saves Marionette that is pre-Vietnam and so he was still trying to be human.

    He's a lot like Spock when you think about it.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 09-09-2019 at 10:05 AM.
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  7. #1297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I believe when he saves Marionette that is pre-Vietnam and so he was still trying to be human.

    He's a lot like Spock when you think about it.
    I also believed that moment was pre-Vietnam, because Manhattan was wearing trunks when he appeared in front of Mime and Marionnete. However, their daughter looked still like a little child by the time she was already living with Dan and Sally at some point after Watchmen's end, meaning that Manhattan meeting with Mime and Marionnete at the bank must happened some years after Vietnman War

  8. #1298
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Wasn't that what the whole "Hypertime" thing was for? DC saying, "It's all valid because it all happened, regardless of continuity."

    Oh, and at the end, what the heck is with that street sign that says "Luthor" and the arrow is pointing right at Dr Manhattan?!?
    To the bit about the Luthor street sign...Lex's time as President of the US is back in continuity, and since Superman & Doc are about to square off on Pennsylvania Avenue in D.C. (where our White House is), I'm guessing the street sign is just a nod to that. Kind of an Easter Egg. I imagine it wouldn't have taken much effort on Lex's part to get D.C. to name a street after him that intersects with one of the most famous addresses in the United States.

    But, it's just a guess on my part.
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  9. #1299
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I lost a little bit of interest with latest issue, because it was so explain-y versus interesting plot reveals and character interactions that told you what you needed to know. If you have to explain everything, the story and its impact loses a bit of cohesion to me. I'm looking for a bit more "elegance" and poignancy in how it all comes together.

    I really enjoy Johns as a writer and how he develops and explores characters, but he sometimes has trouble sticking the landing. Granted I'm sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes we don't know about, after a couple of years at this and all the changes that have happened at DC Comics, DC Entertainment, WarnerMedia, and now AT&T (that's probably an epic meta-story onto itself), so I'm hoping the final issue can still provide a unique, powerful resolution.

    It just seems that Rorschach, Marionette & Mime, and other characters' (Saturn Girl) roles haven't been as necessary or resonate as they could have been to the overall plot.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 09-09-2019 at 08:57 PM.

  10. #1300
    All-New Member Dougbauer's Avatar
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    So what about this?? Where ia te annoucements for the killing zone?
    http://www.madghost.com/

  11. #1301
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Okay so I read a bit of this. Isn't taking Doctor Manhattan, who in WATCHMEN is giving perspective on humanity and the world at large, and sticking him into the DCU to say platitudes like "things are different here, there are heroes here" just pandering? I mean obviously the fictional world of DC Comics is preferable over our own plane, and the WATCHMEN plane (which resembles our world, just with extraordinary elements). Does that kind of miss the point of Watchmen?

    I don't know, it just rings really false to me.

    I will say that the art is gorgeous.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 09-09-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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  12. #1302
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougbauer View Post
    So what about this?? Where ia te annoucements for the killing zone?
    http://www.madghost.com/
    Once Johns's schedule lightens up a tad, he might get back to whatever comics he had in mind, but until his current commitments are fulfilled, it might not be a good idea to add more to his plate. I remember, back when Diane Nelson was head honcho of DC Entertainment, there was a rumor that she made Didio promise to only let Johns write no more than two monthly comics, because he kept trying to add more to his plate. That guy is a workaholic.

  13. #1303
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    This was brought up on the Superman board, and I can't believe I missed that it wasn't brought up during last issue's big recap. How do Mr. Oz and the Flashpoint Batman factor into all this?

    The final issue certainly has a lot of different dangling threads/characters to wrap up.

  14. #1304
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    This was brought up on the Superman board, and I can't believe I missed that it wasn't brought up during last issue's big recap. How do Mr. Oz and the Flashpoint Batman factor into all this?

    The final issue certainly has a lot of different dangling threads/characters to wrap up.
    Are they relevant to anything in DClock?

  15. #1305
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    We've been told the reason they are both in the mainstream universe is linked to Doomsday Clock, and that there is relevancy to them both being the fathers of the major heroes.

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