Readers of Doomsday Clock all SPOILERS thread

[BohemiaDrinker]

Yeah, there's no way this resolves all the Rebirth continuity mysteries on its own. I think it'll set up the next Crisis-style event that *will* finish those plots, but I suspect DC really wants Clock to stand on its own as much as it possibly can.

Im not expecting any real resolutions here, but if we dont get them a lot of people are gonna be pissed.

I believe very little will change.

Everything points out to DClock having been badly sabotaged.

It was originally supposed to be over by now, and yet continuity didn't even aproach the point where this story was supposed to begin: in fact, quite the contrary. Snyder JL is taking the DCU in the complete opposite direction, HiC is also it's own thing and hey, it's year of the villain (again¬¬).

Even if the original plan was for DClock to fix/re-adjust stuff, I find highly likely that it stays in it's own bubble, the only real consequences being the return of JSA/LSH (if that).

[CaptCleghorn]

Even if the original plan was for DClock to fix/re-adjust stuff, I find highly likely that it stays in it's own bubble, the only real consequences being the return of JSA/LSH (if that).

Those two words send chills up my spine. Such a change would be very annoying.

[Ascended]

I believe very little will change.

Everything points out to DClock having been badly sabotaged.

I was originally supposed to be over by now, and yet continuity didn't even aprroched the point where this story was supposed to begin: in fact, quite the contrary. Snyder JL is taking the DCU in the complete opposite direction, HiC is also it's own thing and hey, it year of the villain (again¬¬).

Even if the original plan was for DClock to fix/re-adjust stuff, I find highly likely that it stays in it's own bubble, the only real consequences being the return of JSA/LSH (if that).

Yeah, it definitely seems like stuff has changed behind the scenes and Clock isn't going to carry the weight it was originally supposed to. Which, oddly, Im fine with. This story is too good to bog down with crap tied to the wider DCU. As far as Im concerned this can be a little pocket DC reality with no bearing on the wider continuity at all (though it'd be great to get the JSA and Legion back). I suspect that Clock will be better if Johns doesnt have to line things up with what the rest of DC is doing, especially since DC is no longer dancing to his tune.

However, they still have a broken continuity to fix. There are glaring, huge problems there and sooner or later DC is going to have to address that, or abandon the concept of continuity. It might not be Johns who orchestrates the unboot/reboot/whatever you wanna call it, and it might happen differently with different results, but it still has to be handled. Maybe that's what Snyder is building towards, maybe Johns and Snyder are working together on it, who knows? But continuity has to be fixed either way.

Honestly though, given how quickly the New52 sunk back down to pre-52 sales, you'd think that Didio would be wise enough to know that his particular brand of "cool reboot" did not work, and someone else needs to be in charge of establishing the foundation of continuity. Johns is the guy to do that; he's made his career by working with continuity and establishing modern takes on old histories. Getting another New52 style "it was cool in the 90's" reboot by Lee and Didio isn't going to float, and it'll collapse even faster than the New52 did. Whatever degree of importance Johns has now, he's still clearly the writer best suited for this job (and Im not even a huge fan). Then again, common sense hasnt stopped management in the past, so.......

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I finished my re-read and it completely changed my increasingly dim view of Doomsday Clock and I now have a far greater appreciation for what Johns & Frank have accomplished thus far. The whole thing reads so much better all together it's a shame what the delays have done. Doomsday Clock is so much more propulsive and the way the tension is ratcheted up with each issue is truly impressive. All the various plot threads seem much more connected and cohesive. And, strangely enough, Superman's importance to the story become much more clear.

For anyone who's been reading Doomsday and finding their enthusiasm waning, I strongly suggest giving the first nine issues a re-read. It was pretty game-changing for me in terms of how I see the story.

The people out there who are waiting for the whole story to be collected were on to something. Unfortunately, despite my fondness for Hal Jordan, willpower is not one of my strongest qualities

[Vordan]

Yeah, it definitely seems like stuff has changed behind the scenes and Clock isn't going to carry the weight it was originally supposed to. Which, oddly, Im fine with. This story is too good to bog down with crap tied to the wider DCU. As far as Im concerned this can be a little pocket DC reality with no bearing on the wider continuity at all (though it'd be great to get the JSA and Legion back). I suspect that Clock will be better if Johns doesnt have to line things up with what the rest of DC is doing, especially since DC is no longer dancing to his tune.

However, they still have a broken continuity to fix. There are glaring, huge problems there and sooner or later DC is going to have to address that, or abandon the concept of continuity. It might not be Johns who orchestrates the unboot/reboot/whatever you wanna call it, and it might happen differently with different results, but it still has to be handled. Maybe that's what Snyder is building towards, maybe Johns and Snyder are working together on it, who knows? But continuity has to be fixed either way.

Honestly though, given how quickly the New52 sunk back down to pre-52 sales, you'd think that Didio would be wise enough to know that his particular brand of "cool reboot" did not work, and someone else needs to be in charge of establishing the foundation of continuity. Johns is the guy to do that; he's made his career by working with continuity and establishing modern takes on old histories. Getting another New52 style "it was cool in the 90's" reboot by Lee and Didio isn't going to float, and it'll collapse even faster than the New52 did. Whatever degree of importance Johns has now, he's still clearly the writer best suited for this job (and Im not even a huge fan). Then again, common sense hasnt stopped management in the past, so.......

Why do people want DC to try to fix continuity with yet another big event? It’s never worked before and it won’t work now. DC continuity is broken and has always been broken. It’s never going to read in a clean neat chronological line like people want. There will always be some elements of picking and choosing.

[BohemiaDrinker]

For anyone who's been reading Doomsday and finding their enthusiasm waning, I strongly suggest giving the first nine issues a re-read. It was pretty game-changing for me in terms of how I see the story.

Agree with this. Personally, I'd be loving the series if it started in issue 7. But issue 6 completely broke my interest. Some of this may be attributed to the delays, and some is Johns fault (there are pacing issues, specially for those of us curious about the cosmic side of things).

[Vordan]

They could... Frankly they SHOULD since Flashpoint was the beginning of Manhattan's interference... It's only logical that they fix what he broke. (though fixing what Reverse Flash broke was the original problem...)

But honestly, I don't see much point to it anymore. Dead Mom... or Live Mom she was never a regular cast member. If they would simply stop mentioning and let the angst go and fade back into the distance I'd be content. I know she never had any part of his origin... and he became a cop and a superhero because it was a way to help people of his own free will... but I honestly don't think I ever read an actual story with his alive parents in it. They just weren't that important to who the Flash was.

Iris' death had more of an effect on Barry and now they'll just use Wally to bitter him up... but frankly i'm just tired of the whole dead parent controversy. Just... Let it die.

I know they killed off the kents with the reboot... does that fact ever get mentioned in Superman? Is he ever bitter and depressed that his folks aren't around or weren't avenged or whatever? Or are there enough modern stories to keep him busy?

I honestly prefer the Kents being dead, as a clean break with Smallville. And the answer is no, Clark doesn’t waste time being angst over their deaths. Neither New 52 nor Rebirth Clark were bitter or angry.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Honestly though, given how quickly the New52 sunk back down to pre-52 sales, you'd think that Didio would be wise enough to know that his particular brand of "cool reboot" did not work, and someone else needs to be in charge of establishing the foundation of continuity. Johns is the guy to do that; he's made his career by working with continuity and establishing modern takes on old histories. Getting another New52 style "it was cool in the 90's" reboot by Lee and Didio isn't going to float, and it'll collapse even faster than the New52 did. Whatever degree of importance Johns has now, he's still clearly the writer best suited for this job (and Im not even a huge fan). Then again, common sense hasnt stopped management in the past, so.......

I honestly have the impression that Johns doesn't want this kind of heat at this point.

He's getting to do his versions in live action, and getting way more money for them. I'll be surprised if he takes many more writing gigs. He was already burned out by fandom ten years ago.

Bendis, on the other hand, may have the energy for it, and seem to have enough clout.

Why do people want DC to try to fix continuity with yet another big event? It’s never worked before and it won’t work now. DC continuity is broken and has always been broken. It’s never going to read in a clean neat chronological line like people want. There will always be some elements of picking and choosing.

It's never been, as far as I recall, as broken as it is now. People, at least the ones more invested, want a modicum of cohesion ate least.

[Ascended]

Why do people want DC to try to fix continuity with yet another big event?

Damned if I know. I'd be fine if comics went back to the days when continuity didn't matter very much. Just give us a basic foundation and revolve around it, like back in the day. I feel like the most original stuff came from eras when creators weren't limited by what had come before.

But a tight continuity (or an attempt at one) is what the industry has done since the 60's and it matters to a whole lot of fans. So DC will try to fix it, one way or another. And when they do, it'll be in a big huge Crisis style event, because that's just what they do.

It’s never worked before and it won’t work now. DC continuity is broken and has always been broken. It’s never going to read in a clean neat chronological line like people want. There will always be some elements of picking and choosing.

Yup. And DC will do it anyway, and the fans will want it done anyway, even though history has repeatedly shown that it wont fix things the way they think it will.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Agree with this. Personally, I'd be loving the series if it started in issue 7. But issue 6 completely broke my interest. Some of this may be attributed to the delays, and some is Johns fault (there are pacing issues, specially for those of us curious about the cosmic side of things).

I think dropping my preconceptions of what the story was supposed to be was one of the biggest things that helped me appreciate Doomsday Clock more. I stopped thinking of it as a "cosmic" story about continuity or Superman vs. Manhattan and just took it in on its own merits. I also thought the early issues were irrelevant to the main plot, but I was completely wrong. I don't think there's a single wasted panel on this thing. It's so well constructed, which makes sense given who Johns is trying to follow

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It's possible that the continuity revamping aspects of Rebirth will be shared by Doomsday Clock and Snyder's Perpetua storyline in Justice League.

However, at this point, I don't know what elements of DC continuity are still missing aside from the JSA & LSH. With the Young Justice generation back, the only thing left is a firm confirmation that the New Teen Titans era took place and I suspect Heroes in Crisis will restore Wally West's full history back into the DCU in some form or another via the timey-whimey elements that are becoming more prominent there.

If Rich Johnson's little birds are to be believed, Johns sorted out all the final details with Snyder, Bendis & King at the last DC creative summit, and we know that Johns & Snyder were already on board with each others plans as far back as the planning stages of Metal.

[skyvolt2000]

I think the open question is, whether this change to Firestorm's origin (along with Man-Bat's, Metamorpho's, et al) are intended to be the "real" origins, or are, in fact, "corrupted" origins that have been brought about by Doc Manhattan's meddling.

Well if you go classic Firestorm and not New 52-Jason is out of the picture as never existed.

Which seems to be what DC is doing.

DC continuity is broken and has always been broken. It’s never going to read in a clean neat chronological line like people want. There will always be some elements of picking and choosing.

And that is the issue.

Lets say higher up wants to see Thunder & Lightning (from Black Lightning) in the books again. One issue-Jefferson is not old enough to have grown daughters or at least he wasn't in New 52.
Titans is still a mess.
Batman still went though 5 Robins.
Most of the Young Justice kids are still missing.

Nobody is putting their foot down and say enough. Can we get a basic origin for everybody?

Because every change at a writer's whim screws over another.

[HandofPrometheus]

It's possible that the continuity revamping aspects of Rebirth will be shared by Doomsday Clock and Snyder's Perpetua storyline in Justice League.

However, at this point, I don't know what elements of DC continuity are still missing aside from the JSA & LSH. With the Young Justice generation back, the only thing left is a firm confirmation that the New Teen Titans era took place and I suspect Heroes in Crisis will restore Wally West's full history back into the DCU in some form or another via the timey-whimey elements that are becoming more prominent there.

If Rich Johnson's little birds are to be believed, Johns sorted out all the final details with Snyder, Bendis & King at the last DC creative summit, and we know that Johns & Snyder were already on board with each others plans as far back as the planning stages of Metal.

I would say concrete origin stories are still missing.

[Ascended]

However, at this point, I don't know what elements of DC continuity are still missing aside from the JSA & LSH.

As far as IP's go, they're not really missing anything other than those two. And when those teams come back that'll more or less give us all the major players, with mostly very minor characters like Secret or Warlord left out.

But the problems in the continuity are far deeper. We're still technically on a five year 52 timescale but Superman has been a parent for a decade. Conner Kent didn't exist in this history until a couple issues ago, and that's been a recurring subplot in a few books since Rebirth. The NTT era, and most of those characters, are still a mess. Donna Troy wasn't around when Dick was still Robin, Roy was still Speedy, etc., in current continuity. It's not just a matter of whether a story from thirty years ago "counts," its a matter of basic facts within the current runs and continuity not lining up with each other.

We're playing continuity Twister right now, with one foot in New52 continuity, a foot in post-Crisis, a hand in pre-Crisis, and a hand in completely new stuff. And DC did this on purpose with Rebirth, it's supposed to be glaringly broken right now and not make sense. Even if the plans and people in charge have changed, they still have to deal with this problem they made for themselves somehow.

If Rich Johnson's little birds are to be believed, Johns sorted out all the final details with Snyder, Bendis & King at the last DC creative summit, and we know that Johns & Snyder were already on board with each others plans as far back as the planning stages of Metal.

I forgot Johns and Snyder were working on this as far back as Metal! Good recall man!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

As far as IP's go, they're not really missing anything other than those two. And when those teams come back that'll more or less give us all the major players, with mostly very minor characters like Secret or Warlord left out.

But the problems in the continuity are far deeper. We're still technically on a five year 52 timescale but Superman has been a parent for a decade. Conner Kent didn't exist in this history until a couple issues ago, and that's been a recurring subplot in a few books since Rebirth. The NTT era, and most of those characters, are still a mess. Donna Troy wasn't around when Dick was still Robin, Roy was still Speedy, etc., in current continuity. It's not just a matter of whether a story from thirty years ago "counts," its a matter of basic facts within the current runs and continuity not lining up with each other.

We're playing continuity Twister right now, with one foot in New52 continuity, a foot in post-Crisis, a hand in pre-Crisis, and a hand in completely new stuff. And DC did this on purpose with Rebirth, it's supposed to be glaringly broken right now and not make sense. Even if the plans and people in charge have changed, they still have to deal with this problem they made for themselves somehow.

I forgot Johns and Snyder were working on this as far back as Metal! Good recall man!

I can't say I mind the confused continuity anymore. Obviously, it's not sustainable for much longer because sooner or later they're going to have to settle on some specifics of who knows who and how, particularly when it comes to the New Teen Titans. I suspect Doomsday Clock will give some definitive finality in terms of Dr. Manahattan's tinkering with history, but since Snyder's Perpetua storyline also involves history-bending Multiversal shenanigans, I can see them the continuity remaining in its current malleable stage for a bit longer.

BTW, Warlord was brought back into the DCU during Robinson's utterly forgettable run on Trinity. Wasn't a good story, but Travis Morgan & Co. are certainly back in their classic forms for any future creator to play with them.