Readers of Doomsday Clock all SPOILERS thread

[Talon1load]

I LOVED this issue. This is how an event should be written. Except for the delays.

[Rakzo]

This issue was frikking AMAZING!

In one issue Johns connects everything, finally revealing Superman's relevance in this story, explaining the change of his different origins and revealing why the New 52 felt so off. All of this while defining the main DCU as the Metaverse and accurately making it as the center of the Multiverse in more than one way.

Gary Frank's continues to be a master storyteller and elevates the plot even more. When Johns is on, he's f*cking on!

(Also, I can't believe we got an issue as bad as Heroes in Crisis and as good as this one in the same week. What a mixed feeling).

[Jekyll]

Any developments with the JSA?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Any developments with the JSA?

Lots and lots of JSA stuff this issue and it was all wonderful.

[HandofPrometheus]

A lot to digest.

-I have no problem with Superman being categorized as the center of the DCU. He was arguably DC's first hero and arguably launched superheroes. I'll argue he STILL IS the center of the DCU. Everything always goes back to him. He's not my favorite character but the characters I love would definitely not be the center or anywhere near. I don't hate or love the idea but it's how DC treats him.

-So moving the lamp from Alan Scott therefore no JSA, created the New 52? That's interesting. I love how Manhattan is experiencing the reboots and he's just like "wtf". "I don't understand this universe" was a perfect line.

-I thought DC was going to make Manhattan the creator of the DCU but thats not the case. He's just witnessing its "evolution".

The way DC can always write around a reason or excuse for its reboots is gold.

[Korath]

I think that very idea that Superman no longer is the center of the DCU, but absolutely was, is part of the point that Johns is making with this story.

Yes, but considering what that the character has evolved into, I don't see how it's a problem. Batman's situation is far more problematic, and to me he's far more the center of the DCU than Superman, who may have been the first, but is largely irrelevant today - at least to me.

[Jody Garland]

It's probably obvious, but April 18th is, according to legend, the day Action Comics #1 went on shelves.

[king81992]

If Dr.Manhattan had used his powers to save Carver Coleman instead of messing with the DC universe, things might have turned out okay.

[theoneandonly]

Dr Manhattan: I am leaving this galaxy for one less complicated.
*enters the DCU multiverse*
*arrives in the prime verse*
*observes the happenings and rebootings using his powers*
Dr Manhattan: I don't understand this universe.......

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yes, but considering what that the character has evolved into, I don't see how it's a problem. Batman's situation is far more problematic, and to me he's far more the center of the DCU than Superman, who may have been the first, but is largely irrelevant today - at least to me.

The problem, as I believe Johns sees it (and I would agree), is that the Batman-centric DCU has been pulled further and further into a more cynical and less hopeful direction. It is the balance between the day and night of Superman & Batman that makes the DCU so great. They are the two great poles of the superhero genre, but that balance has been lost as the increasingly insular comic reading audience has gravitated more towards the darkness of Batman.

[Korath]

The problem, as I believe Johns sees it (and I would agree), is that the Batman-centric DCU has been pulled further and further into a more cynical and less hopeful direction. It is the balance between the day and night of Superman & Batman that makes the DCU so great. They are the two great poles of the superhero genre, but that balance has been lost as the increasingly insular comic reading audience has gravitated more towards the darkness of Batman.

But that's mainly because Superman has ceased to be the Champion of the Oppressed and the Man of Tomorrow decades ago, while Batman has largely (barring Tom King's current run) remained the Vengeance on the Wicked and the Caped Crusader. And I think it's because Superman is a far simpler and straightforward character who has stopped to resonate with a world which has grown ever more complex. And attempts to make him more in touch with it have been badly received (New 52, his relationship with Wonder Woman, Bendis run) because what the majority (or most vocal) fans of the character wants isn't to see him challenge the system but reinforce it.

He has to have a perfect married life, with his perfect wife and now his perfect kid, and touching it is blasphemous. Superman has to be that heroic American idol preserving the current civilization, with all its consumerism and social darwinism, being kind of the ultimate form of charity, the most powerful man giving a little bit of time for the poors, without changing the system which beget violence and poverty. But for a lot of people, seeing the lives of two very priviledged white people and their kid isn't inspiring as it used to, perhaps as recently as fifteen years ago. Batman's darkness doesn't evolved the same way, because we are faced with so many wicked peoples, bad news and terrible futures that seeing a man, even a billionaire, going into the night to punish the criminals remains far more visceral.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

I loved this issue.... but I have questions.

So, is the Golden Age era (as presented with Superman and probably Batman present) now retconed to have always been a part of the main metaverse? What about silver age Earth 2? Why did this initial timeline survive as Earth 2 instead of just rebooted? Is our main Superman technically Kal L then? Who died in Infinity Crisis? Is there a post-crisis Earth out there? How come everytime Superman's arrival on Earth is delayed the rest of the DC cast is conceived accordingly but the JSA are stuck in WW2?

So many questions, but unlike with HiC these are fun questions.

[Robanker]

But that's mainly because Superman has ceased to be the Champion of the Oppressed and the Man of Tomorrow decades ago, while Batman has largely (barring Tom King's current run) remained the Vengeance on the Wicked and the Caped Crusader. And I think it's because Superman is a far simpler and straightforward character who has stopped to resonate with a world which has grown ever more complex. And attempts to make him more in touch with it have been badly received (New 52, his relationship with Wonder Woman, Bendis run) because what the majority (or most vocal) fans of the character wants isn't to see him challenge the system but reinforce it.

He has to have a perfect married life, with his perfect wife and now his perfect kid, and touching it is blasphemous. Superman has to be that heroic American idol preserving the current civilization, with all its consumerism and social darwinism, being kind of the ultimate form of charity, the most powerful man giving a little bit of time for the poors, without changing the system which beget violence and poverty. But for a lot of people, seeing the lives of two very priviledged white people and their kid isn't inspiring as it used to, perhaps as recently as fifteen years ago. Batman's darkness doesn't evolved the same way, because we are faced with so many wicked peoples, bad news and terrible futures that seeing a man, even a billionaire, going into the night to punish the criminals remains far more visceral.

You make some fair points, but in what way is Batman not the story of a privileged white man and his kids? He can literally buy the DCU, was born into one of its premiere families and has perfect genes. That's just the short version.

Batman is a story about a 1% billionaire who uses his fortune to jump off buildings and beat poor and mentally ill people. He then creates a gang and indoctrines more to follow him. The annual cost of his war on crime could employ half of Gotham, but rather than effectively combat the big motivation for turning to crime (poverty), he hordes resources and punishes when someone turns to it with few options left.

See how easy it is to twist something to fit an agenda? I think both characters can work, one is just an easier sell to edgy teens and young adults because it hits them where they live: it's easier to say the world sucks than to get up and try to fix it. DC wants to follow that direction because it's easier than to market both options. That's really all there is to it.

[JonaX]

It would seem that while the Metaverse allows itself to change naturally, it reacts badly to outsiders making changes so slowly but surely fights back.

[byrd156]

If Dr.Manhattan had used his powers to save Carver Coleman instead of messing with the DC universe, things might have turned out okay.

I feel like that's how this story will end. Carver will be inspired by Manhattan and those changes will ripple through the "metaverse". Really great setup here, hate the delays but they really feel like they have taken advantage of them so that's something.