Is Moon Girl really smarter than Victor Von Doom and Reed Richards?

[kilderkin]

Umm well to be fair...the REASON it exceeded its creators smarts was because it has no biological limitation. When you consider the brain patterns that said AI was based on...well you basically took that mind and made it only limited by the technology available to it. And add a touch of bi-polar schizophrenia to it, well you get a universal threat.

It is one of my favourite villains for those reasons

[Solid Snake]

You want to believe Reed is smarter than Lunella? Well hey, guess what, there's actually literally nothing in the comics to contradict that, what with Reed not being on Earth right now. And hey, it's likely Doom never played with that test Banner came up with, so if you want to think Doom is smarter than Lunella? No one is stopping you.

In the most recent issue of the Moon Girl series, Lunella calls Reed with adjectives like "the second-smartest there is". So, yes they are pushing Lunella as smarter than Reed as well now.

yeah... I don't buy that either. Reed and Doom will always compete for the biggest geniuses. Parker awesomely created a fancy glue when he was a teenager... Reed and Doom build spaceships, portals, discover dimensions and create Time machines. If they don't have the necessary tools to complete a job... they invent the tools first.

Pym has potential with the combination of bug control, size control and even AI (though I consider Doombots and HERBIE to be contenders there too... after all even the Doombots think they are the real thing until the master comes in the room) But he's very focused and inconsistent.

Banner isn't even in the running. He's specialized in ONE field... Gamma Radiation, and has consistently put that intellect toward one goal. Curing himself... and Failing at it.

Even Stark is vastly focused on his suit and suit based tech to truly hit 'SMARTEST DUDE EVAR...'

Reed and Doom? They are the pinnacles of all knowledge. Whatever they need to know, they are JUST on the verge of discovering. The fact that Reed constantly needs the rest of the team to win, and Doom has mastered time travel, magic and on more than one occasion usurped the powers from godlike beings using just his intellect... I still give the nod to him.

This is exactly what I am thinking on the topic. Reed and Doom are on some levels that no one - no matter what their race, gender or history in MU - should be able to reach, not even have a potential to. They showed that they are even better than all their alternate universe counterparts on multiversal scale occassions. We also know some real-life geniuses lived in the MU, but even Isaac Newton, arguably the smartest person in the history, didn't showed anything near to the feats of Reed and Doom, even though he was handled as a character that fits in the fictional world of Marvel and did some crazy futuristic things in Hickman's SHIELD.

I believe there can be new characters on par with Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, T'Challa or Hank McCoy and if RiRi, Nadia or someone else have some good stories/runs in the future, yeah they can surely be contenders. Although they are pretty much blank sheets right now, Bendis didn't care to give a character to RiRi on his all these Iron Man issues, but she can definitely be a well-written, relatable character in the future in hands of a good writer. Nadia has started good, but that solo series was horrible. Whitley is not a man that deserves to get paid from a professional comic company, he don't have any ambition to create a real story. He was just getting some pieces from similar themed books. But yeah, I am willing to embrace her as well with some good stories and characterization. Sadly, Marvel's general the lack of creative talent problem in the last years prevented these characters to shine for now. As for Lunella, I don't think she is a character who fits in MU, at least not with this title. In addition to the fact that her being just 9-years old, her series is a book that targets basically elementary school children. And because of that, the book is inevitably bad in terms of some critical aspects in today's comics storytelling. So, it becomes impossible to see her as a real/compelling character. Pushing her into books with general target audiences and trying to sell her book to a general profile reader is just stupid. She can never be a real part of MU that way.

[Michael Watkins]

This is exactly what I am thinking on the topic. Reed and Doom are on some levels that no one - no matter what their race, gender or history in MU - should be able to reach, not even have a potential to.

I guess the question is, "should they be?" is it even realistic that the two smartest individuals would be or relative age and have attended the same college? why hasn't anyone smarter come around? why wasn't there anyone smarter before them? or was there?

[Tiamatty]

One feat draws that conclusion, unless I missed something (likely did I admit)

now allowing for the relative short lifespan of the character we are left with the notion that she is clearly smart in the super genius level, is still likely to get smarter, and hasn't had the in panel chances other older characters have had to do their thing

But solving one puzzle, no matter how hard proves your the smartest on earth?

so I'm curious what else has she done?

I've seen her be smart in secret warriors but nothing utterly mind blowing like invent a stable portal to the negative zone

haven't read moon girl so can't comment

My point here is, what else is there to back up this claim she's the smartest by her writers

I'll stress I like her in secret warriors, I have no issue with her being this level of brains, but where's the feats in panel?

Help me out here!

She made a flame-throwing triceratops mech out of Lego:

legothis (2).jpg

I will never tire of that panel.

Beyond that, there actually been quite a few demonstrations in her solo of just how smart she is.

The issue with Moon Girl being declared 'Smartest' is that the proclamation was made arbitrarily by a writer who just wanted her declared that way.

So they make up a 'Banner test' that no one has ever heard of until the issue it's introduced, and she solves it in a vacuum.
Reed, Doom, Stark, T'Challa, Brashear and others were not verified as having participated in it.

I have no issue with there being new, young characters who prove to be better than those other characters, but it needs to be proven in-story. Put her in a situation with the other characters and let her solve it when the others fail. Let them acknowledge her talents. Don't just blindly declare something that hasn't been proven.

The fact that we don't know who else has taken the Banner Test is part of why I think the whine-assing is stupid. Is Lunella legitimately smarter than Reed? We actually don't know. And it honestly doesn't matter. What matters is that she is a supergenius. She's on the same level, in terms of pure brain power, as all those dudes who've been the only ones allowed to be both smart and heroic.

As far as Lunella proving it, well, it's still early in her career. She's only been around for a couple years. She's in the process of proving herself. She's doing things that show her intelligence. The Lego triceratops mech. An actual, functioning spaceship, powered by an alien device. Hell, her lab made of scrounged materials.

She's also been put in situations where she's shown her genius to others. In IvX, Forge invented a device, and Lunella showed him how to miniaturize it. Hopefully, we'll get to see more instances of Lunella playing with the big geniuses, and demonstrating that she's every bit their equal. Not even overshadowing them, just not being overshadowed by them. The coolest thing to see would be Lunella and Reed in a lab together, working on some problem, bouncing ideas off each other and completing each other's sentences.

While Tony and Riri just watch with a bowl of popcorn and comment on the whole thing.

[Tiamatty]

a lot of the smart women are evil. that's somewhat of a negative.

Yep. More accurately, the super-smart women who also regularly engage in any sort costumed activities are evil. What's interesting is that, if a female villain is introduced as a scientific genius, and she later turns heroic, she also drops the science.

It's a really weird, creepy trend throughout Marvel's history.

In fairness his AI was so good it became smarter than most humans if not all

Sure it's evil, but it's evolved past its creator species smarts wise

He didn't fail, he succeeded horrifically.

In the most recent issue of the Moon Girl series, Lunella calls Reed with adjectives like "the second-smartest there is". So, yes they are pushing Lunella as smarter than Reed as well now.

I mean, she believes she's smarter than Reed is. Doesn't mean she is. At the level they're at, it's arguably impossible to really judge.

This is exactly what I am thinking on the topic. Reed and Doom are on some levels that no one - no matter what their race, gender or history in MU - should be able to reach, not even have a potential to.

Nah, screw that. That is not how the world works. Whether other characters ever match the "feats" that Reed and Doom have (and I roll my eyes at the obsession some readers have with "feats"), people should come along who are smarter.

[Kurolegacy]

She made a flame-throwing triceratops mech out of Lego:

legothis (2).jpg

I will never tire of that panel.

Beyond that, there actually been quite a few demonstrations in her solo of just how smart she is.

Examples like this really only serve to demonstrate how she really doesn't belong in 616 but rather her own children oriented universe. Even by comic science standards, something like that is ridiculous. Something like that feels more like something that you'd see coming from a cartoon like Code Name: Kids Next Door rather than a serious comic. To borrow a quote from one of the Nostalgia Critic's older reviews "Even Macgyver would call bullshit on that one".

[Da Boat]

Valeria Richards and Monica Rappacini, just to name 2. As for Moon Girl, her creators themselves explained the "title" was given to her in an attempt to gather her more "respect" and more readers for her book. Not a huge deal imo.
The only problem I can see is that "the smartest person in the whole MU" used to be Reed Richards and by taking the title away in a bid to boost another character they somehow diminish his stature, but basically this is the problem with most "all new all different" marvel characters: the authors introduced them and thought they just needed to claim they were so much better than those who came before in order to gain readers. It did not work because just claiming someone "is much better" is no sobstitute for good storytelling.

Cause they are writers with little imagination.

Introduce a new character give her/him something that makes him/her cool and different beyond they are smarter or stronger than pre-existing ones. Give them a role that made them special, doing something that other characters are not doing.

[Tiamatty]

Examples like this really only serve to demonstrate how she really doesn't belong in 616 but rather her own children oriented universe. Even by comic science standards, something like that is ridiculous. Something like that feels more like something that you'd see coming from a cartoon like Code Name: Kids Next Door rather than a serious comic. To borrow a quote from one of the Nostalgia Critic's older reviews "Even Macgyver would call bullshit on that one".

I WILL NOT SIT HERE AS YOU BESMIRCH A FIRE-BREATHING LEGO TRICERATOPS MECH!

Fire-breathing Lego triceratops mech is amazing and I will brook no dispute on this point.

Good day, sir! I said good day.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

Not out of actual deeds. I see her more as a character like Forge or The Leader who are endowed with superhuman brains and can use them to come up with cool inventions, but were never ones to demonstrate all around genius.

[Tiamatty]

Not out of actual deeds. I see her more as a character like Forge or The Leader who are endowed with superhuman brains and can use them to come up with cool inventions, but were never ones to demonstrate all around genius.

You see her wrong, then. She's not like Forge. She's like Reed. Just, you know, a lot younger so not as educated or experienced. But the same kind of intelligence. It's not a superpower in the sense of Forge or the Leader.

[CaptCleghorn]

You see her wrong, then. She's not like Forge. She's like Reed. Just, you know, a lot younger so not as educated or experienced. But the same kind of intelligence. It's not a superpower in the sense of Forge or the Leader.

Lunella's intelligence isn't a technical super power, but how she uses it and how the character reacts to situations would be the same regardless of whether her intelligence was natural or if it were a super-ability.

[Tiamatty]

Lunella's intelligence isn't a technical super power, but how she uses it and how the character reacts to situations would be the same regardless of whether her intelligence was natural or if it were a super-ability.

Lunella's intelligence is a super-power in the same sense that Hank McCoy's intelligence is a super-power, or Tony Stark's intelligence is a super-power, or Reed Richards' intelligence is a super-power.

It is different from the Leader, whose intelligence is the result of a mutation, or Forge, whose ability to invent stuff is literally his super-power.

[CaptCleghorn]

Lunella's intelligence is a super-power in the same sense that Hank McCoy's intelligence is a super-power, or Tony Stark's intelligence is a super-power, or Reed Richards' intelligence is a super-power.

It is different from the Leader, whose intelligence is the result of a mutation, or Forge, whose ability to invent stuff is literally his super-power.

I'm not arguing that Lunella's intelligence is a super-power. The point is that she's going to be using her intelligence to come up with plans and devices as opposed to her being more physically active. Lunella is going to think of something to do or whip up a device to do it. She's not going to physically fight like Cap or Wolverine would. She's going to plan and invent like Forge or the Leader would. That's the point.

[Tiamatty]

I'm not arguing that Lunella's intelligence is a super-power. The point is that she's going to be using her intelligence to come up with plans and devices as opposed to her being more physically active. Lunella is going to think of something to do or whip up a device to do it. She's not going to physically fight like Cap or Wolverine would. She's going to plan and invent like Forge or the Leader would. That's the point.

And my point is that Forge and the Leader have their intelligence explicitly as super-powers. Slap a power-damper on Forge, and he can't invent any more. Drain the Gamma energy from the Leader, and he becomes a regular dude.

Lunella isn't comparable to them. Lunella is comparable to Richards, Pym, McCoy, Stark, Banner.

[CaptCleghorn]

And my point is that Forge and the Leader have their intelligence explicitly as super-powers. Slap a power-damper on Forge, and he can't invent any more. Drain the Gamma energy from the Leader, and he becomes a regular dude.

Lunella isn't comparable to them. Lunella is comparable to Richards, Pym, McCoy, Stark, Banner.

You didn't like the analogies used. Fine. You said another poster didn't get the character alluding was due to Lunella's intelligence not being a super-power. You might have said Lunella's cuter than Forge or the Leader (an actual fact, BTW) but that point doesn't address the argument. Neither me nor Chainsaw Vigilante said anything about Lunella's smarts being an artificially acquired super power.

We get your point. That point, though, does nothing to support your claim that CV sees the character wrong.