Unworthy Thor: The Logic of Aaron's Run

[JKtheMac]

Well aware of that story, and equally aware writers often choose to ignore it. For example, the idea that the gods are sustained by human worship and would perish without it in inconsistent with the story of Old King Thor outliving the human race, so far as I can see.

And as I was saying in the other conversation Aaron seems to be referring to it so he isn’t ignoring it. And nobody has directly contradicted it. The idea that they are sustained by it is an almost uniquely 90s idea that has mostly gone out of fashion in comics.

[JKtheMac]

Except we weren't given the premise at the outset, were we? We had to wait literally years to find out why Thor couldn't lift his hammer. Aaron meanwhile got me quote hooked on the character of Jane. So my choices were to drop the book and lose that story of keep reading and just overlook the logic gap. I chose the latter, just as you chose to start a thread knowing some people won't agree with you.

I was making similar predictions months before we were told precisely because the groundwork had been laid very clearly. So I believe the premise was pretty clear. The detractors took literally five minutes of Jane lifting the hammer to be very loud about their disapproval and claims it was all totally illogical.

[brettc1]

And as I was saying in the other conversation Aaron seems to be referring to it so he isn’t ignoring it. And nobody has directly contradicted it. The idea that they are sustained by it is an almost uniquely 90s idea that has mostly gone out of fashion in comics.

It was the 70s and possibly early 80s actually. But you often provide contradictory statements like this. The idea going out of fashion and being ignored are the same.

[brettc1]

I was making similar predictions months before we were told precisely because the groundwork had been laid very clearly. So I believe the premise was pretty clear. The detractors took literally five minutes of Jane lifting the hammer to be very loud about their disapproval and claims it was all totally illogical.

You are free to go back and look for my comments from that tim as regards him not being able to lift the hammer. And it seemed obvious to me even then, as it still does now, that more must be at work if even Odin can't lift it. Aaron does not address that in the article you quoted. Does he elsewhere?

As usual up you see deeper and clearer than the rest of us

[Cmbmool]

It’s one thing to explain this to a Thor fan, but I’ve often believe in the old “Show not tell” moment in story telling and this is a poor way to showcase the point to the reader.

[JKtheMac]

It’s one thing to explain this to a Thor fan, but I’ve often believe in the old “Show not tell” moment in story telling and this is a poor way to showcase the point to the reader.

Well thanks for your vote of confidence if that was aimed at me. If that was aimed at Aaron I don't think it is necessary to explain. I was just fed up with the dissenters insisting it didn't make sense despite it making perfect sense.

Indeed, the arguments had drifted so far from what was actually in the comics it seemed that most people had only skimmed the comic and were making poor assumptions based on their own bias. Far from being difficult to understand it simply required the reader to give the book a proper read instead of dismissing it out-of-hand. I thought it always made sense and I thought it was pretty clearly shown and not told in the story.

Besides 'Show not tell' is widely misunderstood as a maxim. It is not about avoiding exposition, it is about choosing an appropriate style in prose. Not really relevant here.

[JKtheMac]

And it seemed obvious to me even then, as it still does now, that more must be at work if even Odin can't lift it. Aaron does not address that in the article you quoted. Does he elsewhere?

Well as I have said already above, this has not yet been revealed yet so we are into speculation which this thread isn't about.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But that isn't the argument that the logic relies upon. You are changing the logic and then arguing about your own interpretation. Nowhere does Aaron suggest that 'gods are bad' he says that the world would be better off without them. That isn't the same thing.

...are you serious?

The implication is clear as day. Without Gods, things would be better off. Things would be good.

But there are Gods. And the world (under Aaron) is worse with them.

Ergo, the Gods are bad.

Split hairs all you want, but it doesn't work here.

[brettc1]

Well as I have said already above, this has not yet been revealed yet so we are into speculation which this thread isn't about.

I can see how you would want to avoid talking about this point, since it doesnt quite match your logic. I'm not even sure it matches Aaron's, since he is certainly canny enough to know what Fury said would mean zilch to Odin.

[brettc1]

...are you serious?

The implication is clear as day. Without Gods, things would be better off. Things would be good.

But there are Gods. And the world (under Aaron) is worse with them.

Ergo, the Gods are bad.

Split hairs all you want, but it doesn't work here.

I would have said the same. But apparently I'm not that smart

[JKtheMac]

I can see how you would want to avoid talking about this point, since it doesnt quite match your logic. I'm not even sure it matches Aaron's, since he is certainly canny enough to know what Fury said would mean zilch to Odin.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the logic. I know most threads are easy to detail but no. That’s the clear line.

...are you serious?

The implication is clear as day. Without Gods, things would be better off. Things would be good.

But there are Gods. And the world (under Aaron) is worse with them.

Ergo, the Gods are bad.

Split hairs all you want, but it doesn't work here.

No. It just suits your argument that he is saying this. You cant make him say something he isn't.

Gor says that the world would be better off without gods. Fury confirms it. Thor takes it to heart. That's all. To stretch that to all gods are bad would leave no out for Aaron's end game. He needs to demonstrate that gods can be good for the world and he needs to demonstrate that Thor is the god that will, and always did, epitomise that.

This is Aaron's story. He has an clear and easy to predict endgame and a clear message. A message I would have thought all Thor fans would appreciate. Sure some don't see the endgame to stories early on, and struggle with the difficult parts. But you have to trust the writers. You have to pay attention to what they are doing overall, their message, not just the current scene. You have to read with a generosity of spirit.

The thing about reading old stories is we know vaguely how they end. Even if we read them for the first time we have a good idea that Thor will be victorious and so we read them with an unconscious generosity. We also know which stories are highly regarded and that helps us appreciate the arc that the characters are going through. I can guarantee that unless Aaron leaves Marvel in a huff before he can finish the arc this will be regarded as a classic in the future. It has all the hallmarks, all of the ground-work and all of the craft of any great run.

[Cmbmool]

Well thanks for your vote of confidence if that was aimed at me. If that was aimed at Aaron I don't think it is necessary to explain. I was just fed up with the dissenters insisting it didn't make sense despite it making perfect sense.

Indeed, the arguments had drifted so far from what was actually in the comics it seemed that most people had only skimmed the comic and were making poor assumptions based on their own bias. Far from being difficult to understand it simply required the reader to give the book a proper read instead of dismissing it out-of-hand. I thought it always made sense and I thought it was pretty clearly shown and not told in the story.

Besides 'Show not tell' is widely misunderstood as a maxim. It is not about avoiding exposition, it is about choosing an appropriate style in prose. Not really relevant here.

Oh no I appreciate all the trouble you have went through to try to explain the storyline. This was more aimed at Jason Aaron and how he had various characters acted in his run on Thor so far.

[JKtheMac]

Oh no I appreciate all the trouble you have went through to try to explain the storyline. This was more aimed at Jason Aaron and how he had various characters acted in his run on Thor so far.

From my perspective many comic readers focus to keenly upon the characters as action heroes. I wrote more here but it is a digression.

[The Cool Thatguy]

No. It just suits your argument that he is saying this. You cant make him say something he isn't.

Gor says that the world would be better off without gods. Fury confirms it. Thor takes it to heart. That's all. To stretch that to all gods are bad would leave no out for Aaron's end game. He needs to demonstrate that gods can be good for the world and he needs to demonstrate that Thor is the god that will, and always did, epitomise that.

Gor said it, and Fury and the hammer confirm it.

Aaron's had a while now to focus on how the Gods contribute to a better world for mortals. To at least refute Gor.

Where has he done that?

[/QUOTE]This is Aaron's story. He has an clear and easy to predict endgame and a clear message. A message I would have thought all Thor fans would appreciate. Sure some don't see the endgame to stories early on, and struggle with the difficult parts. But you have to trust the writers. You have to pay attention to what they are doing overall, their message, not just the current scene. You have to read with a generosity of spirit.

The thing about reading old stories is we know vaguely how they end. Even if we read them for the first time we have a good idea that Thor will be victorious and so we read them with an unconscious generosity. We also know which stories are highly regarded and that helps us appreciate the arc that the characters are going through. I can guarantee that unless Aaron leaves Marvel in a huff before he can finish the arc this will be regarded as a classic in the future. It has all the hallmarks, all of the ground-work and all of the craft of any great run.[/QUOTE]

To each their own, I suppose.

Me? I'm a casual fan, but even I can see why people wouldn't be fond of Aaron's run. He is to Thor, what Coates is to Black Panther.

He undermines Thor's character by constantly having him 'virtue signal' with the hammer. Thor is worthy not because he's learned humility, humanity but because he really wants to swing that hammer.

The power of Thor, as has been inscribed on he hammer for decades, isn't even his. It's some God storm...because why, exactly? I'm still at a loss as to why the hammer that says it holds the power of Thor...holds the power of something else. In Marvel and basic mythos, that power is his.

Even his use of Jane is not without potshots at Thor. Most replacements, those that don't fail (John Walker, Azreal, etc) are used to demonstrate how hard it is to carry their mantle. But Jane started using the hammer better than Thor from the start and if she's struggled to uphold the legacy, I have trouble seeing it.

[brettc1]

It has absolutely nothing to do with the logic. I know most threads are easy to detail but no. That’s the clear line.



No. It just suits your argument that he is saying this. You cant make him say something he isn't.

Gor says that the world would be better off without gods. Fury confirms it. Thor takes it to heart. That's all. To stretch that to all gods are bad would leave no out for Aaron's end game. He needs to demonstrate that gods can be good for the world and he needs to demonstrate that Thor is the god that will, and always did, epitomise that.

This is Aaron's story. He has an clear and easy to predict endgame and a clear message. A message I would have thought all Thor fans would appreciate. Sure some don't see the endgame to stories early on, and struggle with the difficult parts. But you have to trust the writers. You have to pay attention to what they are doing overall, their message, not just the current scene. You have to read with a generosity of spirit.

The thing about reading old stories is we know vaguely how they end. Even if we read them for the first time we have a good idea that Thor will be victorious and so we read them with an unconscious generosity. We also know which stories are highly regarded and that helps us appreciate the arc that the characters are going through. I can guarantee that unless Aaron leaves Marvel in a huff before he can finish the arc this will be regarded as a classic in the future. It has all the hallmarks, all of the ground-work and all of the craft of any great run.

Even with all that, not all stories work as well as they should.

This thread is about the so-called logic of Aaron's run, and as the post presents to me without the usual perceived haughtiness it is actually more well articulated.

But.

Even the best stories can still have plot holes. An excellent example is Capt America Civil War. It's a great movie, but frankly Zemo's plan does not bear close scrutiny because it is WILDLY unlikely to work. It completely depends on Cap, Buck and Iron Man all ending up at the same place at the same time, a place than Stark can only find if somebody tells him where it is after he has thrown them in prison. It's a pretty convoluted scheme which is works mainly because the plot dictates it must.

In the same way, Aaron may right a story with parts that are really good but still have logic gaps and the reason Thor suddenly cannot lift the hammer is, IMO, is one of them.