I've never bought the "comics shouldn't be political" argument. They have *always* been political, and many of the most celebrated stories are, at their core, socio-political statements. Which is just one of Watchmen's many ironies I guess. And today, *everything* is political and comics can't ignore it. I mean, Fox News attacked an issue of Superman a while back because he saved some Mexicans from being shot. Covers have been pulled because there's too much T&A (a social issue turned into political lever). Reboots and adaptations change character's race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc., in order to catch up to modern social standards, which is then turned into a political issue by whichever party wants to capitalize on it. There is no avoiding it.
Superman started off this entire genre by dealing with politics and social issues. The story about Roy Harper's heroin addiction is still pointed to as one of the most influential moments in comics (depending on the list). An issue of 90's Supergirl dealing with racism v. free speech was actually used by college professors as required reading in English (or maybe sociology?) classes. And early Marvel was nothing but fantastical allegory for real-world concerns.
It's been done poorly of course. All the time. My gods, so many times. But there's also lots of really bad comics that aren't political too. So really, it's just a matter of there being a lot of crap books in the world, more than politics being a topic the genre can't actually work with.
You just gotta do it right. And obviously not everyone can, and if you pull back the curtain too far the entire genre falls apart. But that's not a political flaw, that's just being fiction. No fiction withstands close scrutiny because none of it's f**king real in the first place.
"We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."
~ Black Panther.
I think you two are onto something constructive. I accept that political elements be written into comics. At any time, though regarding what I think you two are trying to say, is that, in spite of the history superheroes have been through, and with all due respect to writers who write about politics in their stories, I think that when all is said and done, superhero stories are meant as fun/enjoyable pieces of entertainment primarily above all else. That's not to disrespect the complexities and kinds of stories superheroes can be involved in of course, but I suppose, at least in so far from what I've observed and I'm sure can be reasonable enough to say, that there's a difference between a superhero book with political elements and a political book.
Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-07-2019 at 06:15 PM.
From my standpoint, I see that the most of the US citizens are poor on knowledge when it comes to politics. Which is actually a good thing since everyday politics rarely affect their lifestyle, daily routines and wealth compared to some other countries that your world can be turned upside down by the government at any moment. And if your job is to write comic books, it is not mandatory for you to be more knowledgeable on the field than any other person. Being not is completely okay and I do not see any problem in having fun with some hot topics like Al Ewing does either. Giving some positive messages is also appreciated. However, if you try to make politics an integral part of your plot while you clearly are not qualified to overcome, it gets really hard to read that story.
The first two writers that come into my mind in Marvel Comics are Mark Waid and Ed Brubaker. While reading some of their stories I really felt that I was listening to some guy who suddenly decided to take interest in the politics two days ago and already preaching on everything. The only writer that I liked reading these stories from was Nick Spencer while he was on Captain America and later I learned that he had a background on the field, not surprising. There were actually some parallel story points in Brubaker's and Spencer's Captain America runs and after I saw how Spencer was dealing with same topics in his run, Brubaker's take seemed even more miserable.
Last edited by Solid Snake; 12-07-2019 at 05:56 PM.
Yeah, and that's extended throughout Hickman's overarching Dawn of X series, which has been very fascinating to follow so far.
Agreed. Peter David wrote that issue of 90s Supergirl you were referencing, right? With Linda Danvers/Matrix, who eventually became some kind of angel? And yes, for the people opining that Superman is no longer relevant to modern audiences, all Warner Brothers would have to do is go back to those early stories you were referencing where he did crusade against those who felt their power entitled them to intimidate, brutalize, and oppress others with it. Given our current times, that would be incredibly relevant.
Going back to Marvel, Spider-Man stories have tackled a wide swath of real-world issues such as adolescent social alienation, bullying, drug abuse, child and spousal abuse, corruption and/or bias in news media, homelessness, elder rights, mental illness, exploitation and abuse of women in entertainment media, corporate/political corruption, and more. Iron Man and Hulk stories have both critiqued the military-industrial complex from somewhat opposite ends, Iron Man as beneficiary and profiteer before mending his ways and the Hulk as unwitting creation/victim, allegorizing how the quest for military supremacy and profit has unleashed uncontrollable devastation and unmitigated suffering upon the world. The X-Men franchise is possibly the ultimate allegory in superhero comics for the destructiveness of bigotry and prejudice, and Captain America stories have frequently examined and reexamined what it really means to be a patriot and the difference between that and blind nationalism and jingoism.
Thanks. I appreciate the compliment, and I can somewhat agree with your viewpoint. Yes, superhero stories can (and perhaps even should) be used to help advance our understanding of humanity and society, but those crafting said stories should also remember to make it something their readers/viewers can engage with.
The spider is always on the hunt.
Also a very good point, come to think of it. If you're gonna take it upon yourself to write a superhero story as a political allegory, you should at least build up your base of knowledge on the topic(s) you're tackling before you commit to writing and getting it published. Can't enlighten people if you yourself don't know what you're talking about.
The spider is always on the hunt.
That's more a case of an issue or idea being politicized rather than the story being political. I mean depending on the context, Superman saving the Mexicans from being shot sounds pretty noble and in-your-face from an American perspective. From the perspective of the Mexican readers, it might be a simple liberal idea that projects a white liberal savior into their narrative or their suffering being used to give a corporate mascot some shine and sparkle. And you know, back in the '50s they ran stories of Superman unironically stealing land from the Native Americans (https://www.cbr.com/that-time-superm...st-metropolis/) while in the '40s a Superman Radio show denounced the Klan. I guess Superman's like his greatest enemy, Mr. Mxyzsptlk, to paraphrase, "I spent my first decade as a socialist, my second decade as a liberal, now I'm flirting with fascism, after that, I might feel guilty who knows, and the time after that, gonna go woke".
A truly political story could imagine say, Mexicans organizing and protecting themselves to resist American imperialism and creating alternatives to American culture. Or trying to tell the perspective of the migrants from their POV. Or you know maybe say, a Mexican Superman. Bruce Timm did this quirky series of cartoons a while back that imagined Superman being raised by Hispanic Americans. It was pretty interesting though kind of questionable.
Which is on the whole quite overblown and childish. Superman's New Deal flirtation with politics was interesting for its time but largely shallow and simplistic.Superman started off this entire genre by dealing with politics and social issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lszEmH6hkPY
Heroin addiction is more of a social issue than a political one. A political issue would look at say how the drug trade intersects with American policies in South America and with Mexico or the "war on drugs". Soderbergh's TRAFFIC it ain't. The same with Stan Lee's Drug Trilogy in ASM where Harry Osborn gets addicted to...LSD. That's pretty useless as a drug story since LSD isn't a habit-forming drug. It's a soft drug. It should have been cocaine to be even halfway realistic.The story about Roy Harper's heroin addiction is still pointed to as one of the most influential moments in comics (depending on the list).
Largely filtered through highly generational angst and feelings. Early Marvel in terms of politics was fairly centrist and wishy-washy. The Fantastic Four are anti-communist Cold Warriors whose rocket-trip was all about sticking-it-to-the-reds, Professor Xavier is an FBI asset who trains the X-Men to be narcs (a la The Mod Squad) on their community, the enemies are pure Eurotrash scum (Doom, Magneto), Iron Man was also a Cold Warrior. Stan Lee was personally quite apolitical and above-the-fray. On one hand, you can say that Marvel is situating stuff in the real world and so on, on the other hand it's also kind of glorifying and selling the American way of life.And early Marvel was nothing but fantastical allegory for real-world concerns.
And you know sometimes, top quality superhero entertainment in its own way can be politically forthright and compelling.
-- Take Jason Aaron's "See Wakanda and Die". It's about Wakanda repelling an alien invasion by Skrulls and it's told from the POV of a Skrull General. Aaron humanizes the Skrull General and invader, making him talk like say any Roman General, any Colonialist general, any Nazi General would. The context of Wakanda resisting and defeating the Skrulls sure it might have a lot of political allegory about an African nation repelling an invader but at its core it's a wonderful action story, and it makes T'Challa into a Daniel Ocean type plans-within-plans-within-plans genius. To me that story tells me a lot about Wakanda as an Afro-Futurist fantasy and what it means to see representation like that in genre fiction.
-- A story like "Doomed Affairs" by JMS in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN is a pretty good anti-Iraq War allegory. That was written in 2003 and JMS was a vocal protestor against the Iraq War. In that story, it's a simple story about Peter and his wife Mary Jane connecting to each other again and fixing their marriage. And as a love story, it's very compelling but in the middle of that there's a terrorist attack at Denver where Latverian extremists try and kill Doom, innocent bystanders be damned. And Spider-Man saves Doom's life and then tells him that he should be brought to the Hague legally and be removed by his own people. That story is essentially about why violently attacking and removing a dictator isn't going to solve anything that it's possible that there are people worse than that Dictator, while also condemning terrorism even when that cause is "just" (i.e. toppling Doom). So it's a pretty interesting allegory there.
there's no "should" when it comes to what creators put in the comics beyond what the company is willing to publish and what the creatives want to make.
if you don't like a particular writer's politics and you feel you don't want to see it in the book he or she is writing, your recourse is o stop buying the book for the duration.
and that's it.
Last edited by Redjack; 12-08-2019 at 01:01 PM. Reason: spelling
There are two ways I can Winter Soldier taking backlash.
1) if the movie had ended with Steve, Sam and Natasha fleeing to Russia after having just leaked government secrets to the public.
2) if the Captain America in that movie had been Sam Wilson not Steve Rogers.
Interesting commentary from Supermegamonkey regarding how Ann Nocenti wrote the politics in Daredevil #283 (August, 1990): http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chron...evil_283.shtml
"The rest of the issue is a sort-of crossover with Captain America's Streets of Poison storyline. In that story, Cap is under the effect of a drug produced by the Red Skull, and is acting oddly. Cap is definitely acting oddly in this story, too, but in an entirely different way. And if you weren't following what was going on in Captain America and missed the blurb in the lettercol for this issue (which only says to check the Cap issues to find out "what the heck is wrong with Cap", then you might just think that Nocenti is just writing Cap poorly and inserting her own politics into the character."
"But i find her insertion of politics here to be obtrusive. In part because a lot of it comes from Captain America. I think he should be an FDR liberal (but stronger on Civil Rights) but one that understands the power of the symbol he is and normally keeps his politics to himself. You can argue that this story is a case where the drugs are removing that inhibition, or it's a story where the drugs are just causing him to say things he doesn't believe. But it's still so different than how Captain America normally talks that it's jarring.
And in any event, this story goes beyond Cap's views on race and economics and gets into a paranoid view of an auto-oil-military industrial complex that conspires to stop people from developing alternate fuel cars. And this story "proves" that is true in a very overt way, with various branches of government and the media literally coordinating to destroy the guy. I could see that sort of thing as a metaphorical shortcut if this were an alternate dimension or just a non-Marvel universe story, but in the "world outside your window" Marvel universe when you do something like this it feels like you're saying it could happen in real life. And that's crazy conspiracy theory territory."
Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-08-2019 at 08:10 PM.
The way he keeps using police corruption to deflect from the choice to have Matt continue to run free after having killed someone and have the other superheroes defend Matt when.
Two particularly disgusting scenes are -
1) Spider-Man giving an entire speech to Cole North about how superheroes should be above the law because they have super powers and "there's no rule book". Never mind the lack of a rule book is Marvel's own choice. You could be forgiven for reading this scene and wandering if Otto Octavius is running around in Peter's body again.
2) The conversation Matt and Cole have in a diner after Matt has saved him. Cole talks about an incident in Chicago where he accidentally shot a kid thinking he was a drug dealer with a gun. Matt, a white guy, tells Cole, a black guy, that Cole would have never gone to jail because Cole is a cop, apparently ignoring the times black cops have indeed gone to jail.
Even beyond that, the way audiences have swallowed up this argument genuinely revolts and frightens me. We have people calling Cole naive for wanting to bring Matt to justice and actually agreeing with Peter that superheroes should be above the law because of their powers. Apparently, that argument is only terrifying when it's coming from super villains.
I'm not against politics in comics, as long it's a well written story and put reader into a position to thing. My main issue is that very few writers have a solid, political view and even more, a worldly view. Also, many times, we have seen characters losing their personality traits, in order to fit the political message of the writer(like Iron Man or Mr Fantastic in Civil War).
" I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."
Previously known as Nefarius