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  1. #526
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I should've started a betting pool for how long it would take for LGBT characters to be conflated with politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

  2. #527
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I should've started a betting pool for how long it would take for LGBT characters to be conflated with politics.
    As long as there are homophobic people out there, others sex lives that differ from their own will always be “political”. Honestly, I wonder who these “my only characteristic is that I’m a big ole homosexual, coming to Kiki with your girlfriends, while giving you a blowjob in your pickup truck, while the gf is at home...”
    Last edited by Shadowcat; 04-22-2020 at 11:10 PM.
    Top 10 DC Heroes and 10 Villains
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    :Hawkgirl (Kendra):Troia:Thunder:Halo:Madame Xanadu:
    :Emerald Empress:Circe:Granny Goodness:Cheshire:Silver Swan (Alexandros):
    :Golden Glider:Star Sapphire:Harley Quinn:Cheetah (Domaine):Queen of Fables:

  3. #528
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    As long as there are homophobic people out there, others sex lives that differ from their own will always be “political”. Honestly, I wonder who these “my only characteristic is that I’m a big ole homosexual, coming to Kiki with your girlfriends, while giving you a blowjob in your pickup truck, while the gf is at home...”
    It's not very sporting to depict all your opponents as ignorant or hypocritical. That's bad enough when some of the lower tier X-Men writers try to pull the same stunt when they can't find any other way to inject some drama into their stories. Simply no respect for nuance or the complexity of modern society, in a world that doesn't have be endlessly dreary and overtly political when no politics is called for.

  4. #529
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    I don’t care if it’s sporting or not. I’ve dealt with ignorance and homophobia all of my life. Chastised for being Jewish, threatened for being effeminate, now I’m reading someone thinks Alpha Flight’s downfall was because of Northstar coming out as gay. Northstar was created to be gay, as far back as AF #1. The success of the following volumes had very little Northstar in all of them, so that theory that him being gay was the reason they failed to catch on makes very little sense.

    Vol. 2–shortly after the new volume started, Heroes Reborn ended, and Marvel pushed the returning characters hard, giving them some of the best creative teams, while not really advertising the book did little for it.

    Vol. 3 was always meant as a 12 issue maxi.

    Chaos War mini was supposed to be a mini, changed to an ongoing, then changed back to a mini. Since then we’ve had a few showings of characters here and there, with Northstar being a recurring fixture in the x-books for more than a decade. Your argument makes no sense.
    Last edited by Shadowcat; 04-22-2020 at 11:56 PM.
    Top 10 DC Heroes and 10 Villains
    :Wonder Woman:Huntress (Wayne):Vixen:Catwoman:Black Canary:
    :Hawkgirl (Kendra):Troia:Thunder:Halo:Madame Xanadu:
    :Emerald Empress:Circe:Granny Goodness:Cheshire:Silver Swan (Alexandros):
    :Golden Glider:Star Sapphire:Harley Quinn:Cheetah (Domaine):Queen of Fables:

  5. #530

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    After "Time Runs Out/Secret Wars" Marvel Comics started to decline - so in a desperate attempt to increase sales, Marvel apparently decided to go full diversity to appeal to an even larger public. This was pretty unnecessary, because they were allready as diverse as one could get. The result were jokes like "Snowflake" and "Safespace" = ridiculous crap. People dont buy comics because a character is LGBTQXYZ, they buy comics because of a good story.

    So politics in Comics - if done right - can be good.
    Politics in Comics - if done wrong - can be bad.

    In recent years, Marvel was doing it wrong.

  6. #531
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    I don’t care if it’s sporting or not. I’ve dealt with ignorance and homophobia all of my life. Chastised for being Jewish, threatened for being effeminate, now I’m reading someone thinks Alpha Flight’s downfall was because of Northstar coming out as gay. Northstar was created to be gay, as far back as AF #1. The success of the following volumes had very little Northstar in all of them, so that theory that him being gay was the reason they failed to catch on makes very little sense.
    Eh, perhaps Alpha Flight's time was already over. A slightly campy Canadian super hero team was just a poor fit for the extreme attitudes and edgy overtones of the 90s. Even so, cringy storylines like Northstar's character arc read more like a bad after school special then anything actually engaging you'd expect from Marvel Comics at its best. I mean, Alpha Flight probably would've lasted longer if they'd put someone like Rob Liefeld on it.

  7. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbeyonder View Post
    After "Time Runs Out/Secret Wars" Marvel Comics started to decline - so in a desperate attempt to increase sales, Marvel apparently decided to go full diversity to appeal to an even larger public. This was pretty unnecessary, because they were allready as diverse as one could get. The result were jokes like "Snowflake" and "Safespace" = ridiculous crap. People dont buy comics because a character is LGBTQXYZ, they buy comics because of a good story.

    So politics in Comics - if done right - can be good.
    Politics in Comics - if done wrong - can be bad.

    In recent years, Marvel was doing it wrong.
    Marvel's key to being a strong competitor is their diversity, which they've excelled at. Every company wants to increase market share, did you think the same when DC made Jaime Reyes? Decline how? Did Marvel lose a lot of marketshare the last few years? Every company worth their salt wants to expand their audience, that's how capitalism works. For too long comics failed to do this, it's why they're so far behind other media in terms of diversity. I may not like the New Warriors, but I appreciate that they're trying. People buy comics for loads of reasons, which include being power fantasies for themselves - a big problem is that comics didn't extent that right to marginalised groups like they did to straight white men.

    What did you think of these Avengers?

    https://i2.wp.com/www.comicbookrevol...-1-1.jpg?ssl=1

    https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/up...rs_1_cover.jpg

  8. #533
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    I think politics are fine in comics, but Marvel's push for changing all their big name heroes a while back? All the political push with Mockingbird about feminism and America Chavez always talking about being Latina, etc, they tried it and it just didn't work. Their sells fell flat, people weren't going for it and Axel Alonso parted ways with the company.

    Listen, I've seen the race and minority thing be mentioned for a long long time.. and frankly, for heroes, if they're really iconic or connect with people just because of something like our idealistic beliefs or even the color of their skin, then good for them. But as a person who's NOT white and not even from America, that's never been what we should look towards in our admiration or favor towards icons or even heroes. I teach the kids in my family you don't have to look like someone or walk the same path to be a good influence to them or they you.

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Marvel's key to being a strong competitor is their diversity, which they've excelled at. Every company wants to increase market share, did you think the same when DC made Jaime Reyes? Decline how? Did Marvel lose a lot of marketshare the last few years? Every company worth their salt wants to expand their audience, that's how capitalism works. For too long comics failed to do this, it's why they're so far behind other media in terms of diversity. I may not like the New Warriors, but I appreciate that they're trying. People buy comics for loads of reasons, which include being power fantasies for themselves - a big problem is that comics didn't extent that right to marginalised groups like they did to straight white men.

    What did you think of these Avengers?

    https://i2.wp.com/www.comicbookrevol...-1-1.jpg?ssl=1

    https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/up...rs_1_cover.jpg
    Quoted for truth.

    Comics are experiencing a very slow death because over time they failed to diversify their audience both in terms of content offering and demographic. The only form of entertainment that hasn’t moved with the times is superhero comics. Even kids cartoons feature a lot more diversity than ever before (which makes sense considering the demographics of children under the age of 10 has changed very rapidly over the last few decades). Movies have embraced this (it’s not an accident that movies Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel and even the Fast and the Furious are gigantic blockbusters) and the music industry features people of all manners of colors, nationalities and sexuality prominently. American superhero comics exist in some weird shrinking bubble that’s literally going nowhere.

    Pandering to the same audience for decades hasn’t gotten the industry anywhere. Marvel and DC trying to diversify is them really trying to remain relevant and they are going to have find a way to diversify their audience over time. Marvel has successfully introduced some new minority characters and with 5G, i suspect DC will try something like this and hopefully succeed this time.
    Last edited by Username taken; 04-23-2020 at 04:42 AM.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

    "Are we saying that Black people can't say their lives matter?"- Michael Jai White

  10. #535
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Of course there are certain people out there being immature and whiny in a way that’s unproductive, and are perhaps best ignored. That said, I think there’s something reasonable to had for those who complain about how politics are written in comics in a way that the complaint is intelligent and responsibly-made. For example, assuming that feminism can be closely related to politics, I recall quite a number of people complaining about how Jason Aaron approached feminism in his Thor run, in such a way that female comic book fans complained about it too. This is just one page, but can still possibly largely sum up Aaron’s approach nonetheless:

    God, that's so bad.

    I'm 100% feminist. I live, breathe, sleep, eat and take in new content as a feminist. But this page wreaks of what someone likely clueless on the matter thinks feminism is ("girl power! yay!"). There are so many better, nuanced, sophisticated ways to present feminist storytelling that is often lost for more blunt, Tell, Don't Show ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Titania being a misandrist is pretty in character for her though.
    I'm not sure she is. I mean, to a degree, as she definitely wants to be stronger than any man. But she also hates strong women (see: She-Hulk) which hearkens back to her childhood as a scrawny teenager bullied by the mean girls in her town.

    I also can't see her staying with Absorbing Man if he does indeed get a wandering eye, unless that's just her paranoia rising up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Well, I'd say there's good reason that the previously long-running Alpha Flight was cancelled within two years of this issue being published. And that no Alpha Flight reboot since has been able to find an audience for very long.
    You can't possibly be suggesting Northstar's coming out is the reason Alpha Flight was cancelled? His coming out issue was so popular that its the only Alpha Flight issue to ever receive a second printing.

  11. #536
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    Nothing wrong with a message, but the quality has to be there. Story should serve the characters. People will and can find other things for entertainment if the characters become shock puppets for untalented creative people with political beefs. Want to make change, get more involved in politics. And no, being a slacktivist on twitter is not positive involvement in politics or movements for social change. Also, the strength of any story is told from a humanist perspective, not a vehicle for hot button political messages of the moment. Sometimes I feel like some comics are taking cues from a bad episode of Law and Order or some other crime of the week show. Another problem is the idea of eco chambers hurting the ability to see people as people rather "the enemy." No one wants to pay for an expensive comic and feel like they are being lectured to for their trouble. Would have been better off using that money to buy a combo meal from McDonalds or something. I basically use my comic money currently to fill in gaps in my childhood collection.

    The only current stuff I'm getting is Black Cat/Amazing Mary Jane and a few chase covers here and there from different series to frame. That's it. I'd rather work on back issues of Uncanny X-Men than pick of a copy of some of the things I see being passed off as quality (New Warriors troll job, as one example).

    Just my two cents. My opinion only. I know a lot can and will be said about this and the debate will go on.

  12. #537
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    Northstar came out as gay in issue 106. The book lasted till 130.

    The book lasted 3 years after he came out. So yes lets keep accusing Northstar as the reason a book got AXED 3 years later.

    Jim Shooter had polices towards gay characters-so DESPITE writers wanting to let it be known about Northstar-they could NOT. But they managed to include some hints about it.


    All the political push with Mockingbird about feminism and America Chavez always talking about being Latina, etc, they tried it and it just didn't work.
    As someone who READ Mockingbird-she wasn't going around screaming about feminism. Same with America Chavez. See the issue we keep seeing is folks who don't read the books take whatever little thing they can get to incite fan boy rage. Folks were making stuff up to get hate for characters like Riri was made to replace Storm-just to get X-Men fans riled up.

    Excluding Bruce Banner and normal Logan-everyone else was around in some form.
    FUNNY no one cried about Doom calling himself Ironman but were ready to RIOT over Riri Williams-who did NOT call herself that.

    Mosaic? For all the CRYING about create new POC and leave white ones alone-the line started to the left of fans disrespecting Redjack and Khary Randolph and Marvel is trying to get new readers.
    Trying to expand the franchises of Black Panther & Deadpool & Dr Strange-got met with REJECTION.

    Luke Cage, Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey, Ironfist, Jessica Jones, Mockingbird, Black Bolt, Inhumans, Old man Logan, Moon Knight, Nebula, Defenders, Starbrand, Groot, Rocket raccoon, Dr Strange, Red Wolf, Solo, Falcon, Clint-Hawkeye, Slapstick, Foolkiller, Black Knight, Hercules & Starbrand? -For all the CRYING about using who was there-we saw some of the greatest gymnastics that would make Simone Biles jealous to NOT support them.

    Marvel tried to offer some diverse books and all they saw was pure bigotry before the FIRST issue came out.

    With store owners (some of whom as now BEGGING for books) calling for folks at Marvel to be fired. What was funny while they BLEEPED about books like Moon Girl to Bleeding Cool-they didn't do that when they choose NOT to order Solo (white guy) or Black Knight (white guy) or Slapstick (white guy) or Foolkiller (white guy) or Starbrand (WHITE guy). I MET the inker for Starbrand-he was SHOCKED to meet someone who bought the book. That was how bad the orders were.

    Those books did not last beyond issue 6. They did not do well as trades. Meanwhile everybody that attracted hate found success in some form.



    Jamal Igle posted this yesterday on his Twitter-clean version-there's a pandemic going on and that is more important than whining about New Warriors and Children of the Atom. Not everything has to be for you.

  13. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serving Size View Post
    Nothing wrong with a message, but the quality has to be there. Story should serve the characters. People will and can find other things for entertainment if the characters become shock puppets for untalented creative people with political beefs. Want to make change, get more involved in politics. Sometimes I feel like some comics are taking cues from a bad episode of Law and Order or some other crime of the week show. Another problem is the idea of eco chambers hurting the ability to see people as people rather "the enemy." No one wants to pay for an expensive comic and feel like they are being lectured to for their trouble.
    Name me these books that lecture.

    What book?
    What issue?
    What page number?

    Let guess....
    Lois Lane 106 (1970)-where Lios learned what it was like to be BLACK.
    Punisher by Mike Baron that and Punisher as a BLACK MAN and laid plans for a BLACK Punisher form London years later.
    Amazing Spider-Man 342-344
    New Teen Titans 26-27 (volume 1)
    Captain America 323-324-where Falcon was DQ as being Cap America because the USA was not ready for a black Captain America.
    Batman Seduction of the Gun-a book made in response to a WB executive losing their kids to guns violence.
    Static -Static deals with learning Richie is gay. Wade is a drug dealer. Frieda has an eating disorder and Static saves Jewish churches from black bombers.
    The Fly (1992) deals with teen suicide.
    Batman Venom
    Black Panther versus the KLAN in Jungle Action.
    Rage's first appearance in Avengers

    OHHHHHH You thought I was going to list books from now and not books from over 40 years ago? Books that did the preaching that today's books are accused of.


    . People dont buy comics because a character is LGBTQXYZ, they buy comics because of a good story.
    It's so funny I only hear this when it comes to CERTAIN books/creators.
    I hear it's about your RESUME not skin color or sexuality or gender.
    I keep hearing it's all about story QUALITY. Quality of story matters. We must bow down and worship story quality. We must bow down and worship those QUALITY writers. That is what I hear......

    That is not what I see.
    I see gate keeping. That only targets POC, LGBTQ & WOMEN. Who must have these immaculate resumes carried down from the mountain by Moses.

    In fact let me have Matt Wayne talk about it-

    https://goodmenproject.com/komplicat...enied-by-sdcc/

    Here’s a trivia question for you: Aside from the titles he published himself, what was Dwayne’s first monthly comics writing assignment? Believe it or not, that was Justice League of America in 2007. “But what about Deathlok,” you ask? Sorry, that was co-written with the redoubtable Greg Wright. “Fantastic Four?” Nope, it wasn’t open-ended. Dwayne knew that was a finite assignment when he took it. “X-O Manowar? Firestorm?” Same deal.

    The majors never appreciated Dwayne’s writing enough to grant him a steady job of it. Not until there had been a Static cartoon, and the Justice League cartoon. And Beyond! And Fantastic Four. And Milestone, of course. By the time he landed that regular monthly, Dwayne was already in the history books of two media.

    Now, naming no names, think of how many not-so-good writers you’ve seen blunder from one long-term monthly comic assignment to another. (And sure, who qualifies as a hack is subjective. You and I might not be thinking of the same names.) Each of those writers got more of a shot than Dwayne did.
    That good ole boy network keeps a lot of guys employed.

  14. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Name me these books that lecture.

    What book?
    What issue?
    What page number?

    Let guess....
    Lois Lane 106 (1970)-where Lios learned what it was like to be BLACK.
    Punisher by Mike Baron that and Punisher as a BLACK MAN and laid plans for a BLACK Punisher form London years later.
    Amazing Spider-Man 342-344
    New Teen Titans 26-27 (volume 1)
    Captain America 323-324-where Falcon was DQ as being Cap America because the USA was not ready for a black Captain America.
    Batman Seduction of the Gun-a book made in response to a WB executive losing their kids to guns violence.
    Static -Static deals with learning Richie is gay. Wade is a drug dealer. Frieda has an eating disorder and Static saves Jewish churches from black bombers.
    The Fly (1992) deals with teen suicide.
    Batman Venom
    Black Panther versus the KLAN in Jungle Action.
    Rage's first appearance in Avengers

    OHHHHHH You thought I was going to list books from now and not books from over 40 years ago? Books that did the preaching that today's books are accused of.
    I've read some of those, actually. As for naming, I already listed the current comics I buy, which is Amazing Mary Jane and Black Cat (and chase covers that employ the rule of cool/make the heroes look as they should/good for framing). My simple rule in life is to spend extra cash on things that gives me joy. I avoid bad comics and am not really about outrage, actually. I just wanted to say my peace about this issue. I do think some of the things Marvel has done has been short sighted, but my concern is if I were to list different examples, it'd become a rabbit hole type situation. And... the critique against Marvel's creep into modern social politics is already out there and much smarter people than I have gone into it.

    I'm not going buy things that don't appeal to me when there's great stuff out there from the past for cheap on eBay and elsewhere, both in terms of both story and art. I actually grew up reading Uncanny X-Men and my mother and I would watch Quantum Leap together (which also had strong social commentary in it btw). I know all about messages in media and if you really think many modern stuff compares, well, ultimately the market will sort this stuff out.

  15. #540
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serving Size View Post
    Nothing wrong with a message, but the quality has to be there.
    Indeed. I find it funny some people are repeating on here “comics have always been political, and there are people from dark places complaining against them” over and over and over again, when as far as I’m concerned on this thread so far, we’re just having a largely constructive, responsible-based discussion over the topic of quality in comics, even when politics are directly involved. From this point forward, for the sake of sanity and not wasting time, I think I should only focus on those discussing constructive criticism and ignore both trolls (who may be better off being banned) and “troll protesters” whom fruitlessly complain about the same thing over and over and over again. Not saying that people can’t complain over trolls of course, but I think I’ve seen enough of that, and again, will just focus on constructive criticism, like how layered, dramatic, and character-driven Lobdell’s writing for Alpha Flight was, and leave it at that. I’m not obligated to respond to everyone after all, and others shouldn’t feel the same. As long as I’m having educated, responsible discussions while having fun, which is why I come onto forums at the end of the day, then I won’t feel like I have to worry about anything beyond that.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 04-23-2020 at 08:42 AM.

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