politics in comics

[whiterabbit]

Northstar came out as gay in issue 106. The book lasted till 130.

The book lasted 3 years after he came out. So yes lets keep accusing Northstar as the reason a book got AXED 3 years later.

Jim Shooter had polices towards gay characters-so DESPITE writers wanting to let it be known about Northstar-they could NOT. But they managed to include some hints about it.




As someone who READ Mockingbird-she wasn't going around screaming about feminism. Same with America Chavez. See the issue we keep seeing is folks who don't read the books take whatever little thing they can get to incite fan boy rage. Folks were making stuff up to get hate for characters like Riri was made to replace Storm-just to get X-Men fans riled up.

Excluding Bruce Banner and normal Logan-everyone else was around in some form.
FUNNY no one cried about Doom calling himself Ironman but were ready to RIOT over Riri Williams-who did NOT call herself that.

Mosaic? For all the CRYING about create new POC and leave white ones alone-the line started to the left of fans disrespecting Redjack and Khary Randolph and Marvel is trying to get new readers.
Trying to expand the franchises of Black Panther & Deadpool & Dr Strange-got met with REJECTION.

Luke Cage, Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey, Ironfist, Jessica Jones, Mockingbird, Black Bolt, Inhumans, Old man Logan, Moon Knight, Nebula, Defenders, Starbrand, Groot, Rocket raccoon, Dr Strange, Red Wolf, Solo, Falcon, Clint-Hawkeye, Slapstick, Foolkiller, Black Knight, Hercules & Starbrand? -For all the CRYING about using who was there-we saw some of the greatest gymnastics that would make Simone Biles jealous to NOT support them.

Marvel tried to offer some diverse books and all they saw was pure bigotry before the FIRST issue came out.

With store owners (some of whom as now BEGGING for books) calling for folks at Marvel to be fired. What was funny while they BLEEPED about books like Moon Girl to Bleeding Cool-they didn't do that when they choose NOT to order Solo (white guy) or Black Knight (white guy) or Slapstick (white guy) or Foolkiller (white guy) or Starbrand (WHITE guy). I MET the inker for Starbrand-he was SHOCKED to meet someone who bought the book. That was how bad the orders were.

Those books did not last beyond issue 6. They did not do well as trades. Meanwhile everybody that attracted hate found success in some form.



Jamal Igle posted this yesterday on his Twitter-clean version-there's a pandemic going on and that is more important than whining about New Warriors and Children of the Atom. Not everything has to be for you.

Look this is straight from Mockingbird itself. Even if people who read Mockingbird or America Chavez and didn't realize Gabby Rivera mention her being Latina and brown and gay all the time, the truth is that the message can't be the priority and has to have quality to match. Animal Man was about wildlife protection and Swamp Thing was about environmentalism and they were great books. Watchmen was even about how superheroes just don't work.

[ed2962]

Look this straight from Mockingbird itself. Even if people who read Mockingbird or America Chavez and didn't realize Gabby Rivera mention her being Latina and brown and gay all the time the truth is that the message can't be the priority and has to have quality to match. Animal Man was about wildlife protection and Swamp Thing was about environmentalism and they were great books. Watchmen was even about how superheroes just don't work.

There was one issue of Mockingbird where the story was about Bobbi wishing there were more female superheroes when she was a little girl. That was a "radical" as that comic actually got. The cover of the last issue with her in a feminist t-shirt is what set a lot of people off, thing is most of them weren't even reading the title. They simply got mad over the term feminist agenda. People who were actually reading the comic didn't care about the T-shirt, they were more bothered by a continuity ret-conn in that issue.

I gave up on America Chavez after the 2nd issue it was just poorly written and drawn.

[Nyssane]

Even if people who read Mockingbird or America Chavez and didn't realize Gabby Rivera mention her being Latina and brown and gay all the time, the truth is that the message can't be the priority and has to have quality to match.

I didn't read America or Mockingbird so I can't really speak to their quality. But at least for America, Marvel was offering a perspective that no other comics did. What other mainstream superheroes are brown gay Latinas? It'd be foolish of Marvel to not have stories with that at the center.

[Electricmastro]

Another politically-related topic of interest I felt was worth mentioning: Gerry Conway’s writing about the abused becoming the abuser in Web of Spider-Man #57 (November, 1989).

[skyvolt2000]

I decided to dig through my collection of books.

For your consideration Cage issue 5 1992. From the LETTER page-

A person wrote to the creative team RIPPING them a new one about the book.

"I am very unhappy if not totally embarrassed by the new incarnation of Luke Cage."
"You seemed to turn him into a typical N.W.A. just like Rage, Cyborg and Falcon use to be."
"Cage is an embarrassment to all that is African American."
"He is taking money for doing what should be done out of the goodness of his heart."
He gets compared to a drug dealer. Single minded preoccupation with money and material things.
Cage looks like a gang member and talks too ghetto.
Storm and Monica (at the time Cap Marvel) get bashed as beyond reproach.
"Why do we have to carry the burden and the inequalities of the race?"
"Why do as black men feel it necessary to denigrate and perpetuate those things that shackle us the most?"
A LEGIT criticisms of his powers varying from one book to another is mentioned.

The editor fires back.
Luke cage is NOT meant to be the prime example of all blacks.
The Hero for Hire angle was addressed and compared to cops, fire fighters and bodyguards.
Luke cage's skin is viewed as organic steel.

So my question to yall would be is this an example of legit criticism or bashing?

Oh the writer of the letter???? Kevin Grevioux. Yes THAT Kevin. Blue Marvel's Daddy.

[whiterabbit]

I didn't read America or Mockingbird so I can't really speak to their quality. But at least for America, Marvel was offering a perspective that no other comics did. What other mainstream superheroes are brown gay Latinas? It'd be foolish of Marvel to not have stories with that at the center.

I strongly believe that race, religious ideology, sexual orientation and political affiliation should never be at the center as a selling point. They can be add-ons for the character but should never be the driving core, as then we're just focusing on their status as a minority and everything else second. I love Kyle Rayner, Jessica Cruz and Blue Beetle, but their ethnic origins are not handled the same as America Chavez, who's book spoke for itself.

Likewise, Ryan Choi and Cassandra Cain are my two favorite Asian characters of all time, and their minority status isn't treated as a plus or negative in their capabilities or accomplishments as heroes. Politics are fine in comics, as is social status and race and everything else are all fine topics and are still handled today -- what happened in 2017 with Marvel was not fine. The effects are still felt today with their Editor in Chief being replaced.

[Nyssane]

I strongly believe that race, religious ideology, sexual orientation and political affiliation should never be at the center as a selling point. They can be add-ons for the character but should never be the driving core, as then we're just focusing on their status as a minority and everything else second. I love Kyle Rayner, Jessica Cruz and Blue Beetle, but their ethnic origins are not handled the same as America Chavez, who's book spoke for itself.

It might not be important to you, but it clearly is for a lot of people. Why yuck their yums when there are so many comics to go around for everyone?

[Steel Inquisitor]

I strongly believe that race, religious ideology, sexual orientation and political affiliation should never be at the center as a selling point. They can be add-ons for the character but should never be the driving core, as then we're just focusing on their status as a minority and everything else second. I love Kyle Rayner, Jessica Cruz and Blue Beetle, but their ethnic origins are not handled the same as America Chavez, who's book spoke for itself.

Kyle Rayner's not written as a minority, his Irish heritage got far more focus than his Mexican heritage. He's drawn like a generic white man, as well. I remember him meeting his father, a Mexican American undercover agent, once then the subject never was bought up again. Jaime Reyes' heritage as a latino is front and centre, especially in his first series - the opposite of Kyle Rayner. He was actively in a Latino community, embedded in their culture and the comics took pride in him embracing it. They made an issue just to be in Spanish, with no English translation, to highlight his heritage. Haven't read Jessica Cruz, America or Mockingbird. I know Mockingbird was targeted specifically for the cover, which was the mildest cover ever. Not really a leap that she's a character who'd be proud of being a woman and why wouldn't she? It foreshadowed what would occur to Captain Marvel.

Likewise, Ryan Choi and Cassandra Cain are my two favorite Asian characters of all time, and their minority status isn't treated as a plus or negative in their capabilities or accomplishments as heroes. Politics are fine in comics, as is social status and race and everything else are all fine topics and are still handled today -- what happened in 2017 with Marvel was not fine. The effects are still felt today with their Editor in Chief being replaced.

Cain is defined more by her disabilities than her heritage, which I'm starting to get uneasy about the characterisation as they could replace her with a white girl and not change anything. When Shiva's parentage came up the space was about Shiva herself, not anything about her Asian heritage. I'm not saying her heritage should define her but it's just a total blank. When she should have some opinions on it being from a marginalised group in America.

[Kintor]

Cain is defined more by her disabilities than her heritage, which I'm starting to get uneasy about the characterisation as they could replace her with a white girl and not change anything. When Shiva's parentage came up the space was about Shiva herself, not anything about her Asian heritage. I'm not saying her heritage should define her but it's just a total blank. When she should have some opinions on it being from a marginalised group in America.

If you want to read gut-wrenching stories about oppression then comics books about super heroes are probably a poor medium for it. By definition a super hero is one of the elite; the very best that humanity has to offer in terms of personal drive, physical ability or intellectual acumen; usually a combination of all three to some degree. That’s true of both heroes and villains, each and every one of them has obtained a life beyond the reach of normal people.

Just take Lady Shiva for example, Sandra Woosan is a beautiful world-class athlete that is independent by nature and self-employed by profession. Sure, Sandra kills people for money but she's more or less living a version of the American Dream. It makes perfect sense that a character like Lady Shiva would be defined by her achievements rather than any immutable qualities of race that have no bearing on her success.

[Raye]

It might not be important to you, but it clearly is for a lot of people. Why yuck their yums when there are so many comics to go around for everyone?

Yeah, this is my thoughts on the matter. While I personally am not too fussed with sharing traits like sexuality or race etc. with my favorite characters, I know it is important to a lot of people, and some people really do make their sexuality or whatever a really core part of their identity. It isn't something I really do myself, but I know people like that are all over the place, and they have as much right to be depicted in a book as anyone else. Not everyone is all 'I keep that kinda stuff low key in my life, no need to make it a big deal' and there's nothing wrong with showing that sometimes. Yeah, it's been handled poorly at times, I didn't like America's solo book either (but I like the character in general) but I don't think that means doing it all is a problem, everything can be done badly.

But I think having characters that belong to assorted minorities serve more of a purpose than just to act as a selling point or an aspect for fans to latch on to and identify with. It just creates a more varied and interesting world for all the characters to inhabit, and sometimes you kind of have to point out these minority characters to make it apparent, and so that future writers are less likely to just assume they are straight or neurotypical, or ____ religion, or whatever else. Not everything is a visible minority, so you have to say it in the text, and say it clearly and prominently, or it's likely to just be overlooked and forgotten.

[Electricmastro]

Yeah, this is my thoughts on the matter. While I personally am not too fussed with sharing traits like sexuality or race etc. with my favorite characters, I know it is important to a lot of people, and some people really do make their sexuality or whatever a really core part of their identity. It isn't something I really do myself, but I know people like that are all over the place, and they have as much right to be depicted in a book as anyone else. Not everyone is all 'I keep that kinda stuff low key in my life, no need to make it a big deal' and there's nothing wrong with showing that sometimes. Yeah, it's been handled poorly at times, I didn't like America's solo book either (but I like the character in general) but I don't think that means doing it all is a problem, everything can be done badly.

But I think having characters that belong to assorted minorities serve more of a purpose than just to act as a selling point or an aspect for fans to latch on to and identify with. It just creates a more varied and interesting world for all the characters to inhabit, and sometimes you kind of have to point out these minority characters to make it apparent, and so that future writers are less likely to just assume they are straight or neurotypical, or ____ religion, or whatever else. Not everything is a visible minority, so you have to say it in the text, and say it clearly and prominently, or it's likely to just be overlooked and forgotten.

I think there’s room for various approaches, in that you have characters like Black Panther, in that you can have some of his stories talk about race while also having him in more fantastical settings such as fighting against demons like Dormammu, and then you have more socially-centric characters like Sir Tristan from Camelot 3000 in which his origin and overall storyline is more closely in within the discussion of gender politics, and can use that to convincingly talk about gender politics more overtly.

If nothing else, I think that in whatever minority background the writer decides to have their characters be apart of, that the writer should always strive to make them feel... human.

And I think even the most socially-conscious people from minority groups would want such characters to be well-written and feel human too, don’t you think?

[whiterabbit]

It might not be important to you, but it clearly is for a lot of people. Why yuck their yums when there are so many comics to go around for everyone?

Our icons and heroes should go deeper than how we appear, or where we're from. If people find happiness with the characters over these traits, then good for them.

Kyle Rayner's not written as a minority, his Irish heritage got far more focus than his Mexican heritage. He's drawn like a generic white man, as well. I remember him meeting his father, a Mexican American undercover agent, once then the subject never was bought up again. Jaime Reyes' heritage as a latino is front and centre, especially in his first series - the opposite of Kyle Rayner. He was actively in a Latino community, embedded in their culture and the comics took pride in him embracing it. They made an issue just to be in Spanish, with no English translation, to highlight his heritage. Haven't read Jessica Cruz, America or Mockingbird. I know Mockingbird was targeted specifically for the cover, which was the mildest cover ever. Not really a leap that she's a character who'd be proud of being a woman and why wouldn't she? It foreshadowed what would occur to Captain Marvel.

Cain is defined more by her disabilities than her heritage, which I'm starting to get uneasy about the characterisation as they could replace her with a white girl and not change anything. When Shiva's parentage came up the space was about Shiva herself, not anything about her Asian heritage. I'm not saying her heritage should define her but it's just a total blank. When she should have some opinions on it being from a marginalised group in America.

Jaime Reyes is also a giant geek, loving dork, who's deepest darkest desire is he wants to be a dentist... He's fun, he's likable, and he's Mexican. You don't have to make him being Mexican his big draw. And Kyle Rayner and Cassandra Cain, you don't have to be written as a minority to be a minority. Cassandra doesn't have to be doing Asian things, or Kyle Rayner flying to Mexico or Ireland to be counted as a minority. "Race" isn't something you do or say, you just are. Cultural differences? Yeah. But being black or Asian or Jewish? It's just part of us.

[Raye]

I think there’s room for various approaches, in that you have characters like Black Panther, in that you can have some of his stories talk about race while also having him in more fantastical settings such as fighting against demons like Dormammu, and then you have more socially-centric characters like Sir Tristan from Camelot 3000 in which his origin and overall storyline is more closely in within the discussion of gender politics, and can use that to convincingly talk about gender politics more overtly.

If nothing else, I think that in whatever minority background the writer decides to have their characters be apart of, that the writer should always strive to make them feel... human.

And I think even the most socially-conscious people from minority groups would want such characters to be well-written and feel human too, don’t you think?

Of course, I don't think we have to go all in with one approach, I was just saying I don't think the more progressive 'politics' focused approaches should be off the table, there are enough books being published that there's room for a wide variety of approaches and tones. I also don't think that taking a more overt approach means the characters have to feel less human or authentic. For every straight acting gay man in real life who just keeps it all under the radar for the most part, you have a flaming queen that goes to all the pride rallies and drag shows, decorates their home with rainbow flags, and his sexuality is just a very central part of his life. You could make them both into characters, and both are authentic depictions of real people, even though one is waaaaay more in your face about sexuality than the other.

[Steel Inquisitor]

If you want to read gut-wrenching stories about oppression then comics books about super heroes are probably a poor medium for it. By definition a super hero is one of the elite; the very best that humanity has to offer in terms of personal drive, physical ability or intellectual acumen; usually a combination of all three to some degree. That’s true of both heroes and villains, each and every one of them has obtained a life beyond the reach of normal people.

Comics have been discussing politics, like oppression, and with metaphor for as long as they've existed. X-men built an empire on this trope and they have members who can bench press trucks. Super-heroes, their supporting casts and opponents are faced with political realities inside and outside costume, being a super-hero won't instantly make a person immune to being attacked or having opinions on things like oppression. Like the legendary Green Arrow/Green Arrow run.

Just take Lady Shiva for example, Sandra Woosan is a beautiful world-class athlete that is independent by nature and self-employed by profession. Sure, Sandra kills people for money but she's more or less living a version of the American Dream. It makes perfect sense that a character like Lady Shiva would be defined by her achievements rather than any immutable qualities of race that have no bearing on her success.

I was talking about Cassandra Cain, not Shiva. Shiva is a woman that is heavily entrenched in Chinese culture in the DCU, she knows all the main figures and organisations in the Chinese martial arts community and honors their traditions. This includes her fashion choices. The only reason I can see of racism or sexism not affect her directly is because people aren't suicidal, but there is always someone stupid enough to do that when their bigotry overwhelms their survival instincts.

Being successful and a minority won't stop them being a target or recognise when it happens around them.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/p...tennis-us-open

After the upset, tennis legend Billie Jean King came to Serena’s defense, writing, “Women are treated differently in most arenas of life. This is especially true for women of color. And what played out on the court yesterday happens far too often. It happens in sports, in the office and in public service. Ultimately, a woman was penalized for standing up for herself.”

Shiva was not born a world class martial artist, she was originally a middle class girlfriend of Richard Dragon who he taught martial arts too.

Cain is a recluse who couldn't speak and she does go out as a civilian. To the public she's not Batgirl, she's a mute Chinese girl. The only reason she wouldn't be given racial insults in the Batgirl identity was because the suit covered every inch of her body, like Spider-man. IIRC originally she didn't think about race due to her upbringings, but that wasn't going to stick forever. She's not a child who doesn't know how the world works any longer.

Superhero worlds may not be exactly like ours but they're not alien environments that racism and sexism don't exist. That's why it's silly that Cain wouldn't form her own opinions on this, given her life experiences. She can't just turn off her ethnicity, no should she have to - it's who she is and she should be proud of it like Jaime Reyes is.

Jaime Reyes is also a giant geek, loving dork, who's deepest darkest desire is he wants to be a dentist... He's fun, he's likable, and he's Mexican. You don't have to make him being Mexican his big draw. And Kyle Rayner and Cassandra Cain, you don't have to be written as a minority to be a minority. Cassandra doesn't have to be doing Asian things, or Kyle Rayner flying to Mexico or Ireland to be counted as a minority. "Race" isn't something you do or say, you just are. Cultural differences? Yeah. But being black or Asian or Jewish? It's just part of us.

Jaime Reyes is all those things, he didn't have to choose between one or the other. They all part of his identity, like being Muslim is part of Kamala's. Part of what made Jaime a big draw was how culturally linked he was to his Mexican roots, and was a significant part of why his original series was beloved. They didn't shove his Mexican culture to the side, it was everywhere - his friends, his enemies, his family - all celebrated that and so did the comic itself which did the non translated issue. Something very rare in comics to do. This is less defining outside that series, whenever he's guest starring or on team books its kept to the minimum.

Minorities don't have to fly to the countries they have cultural connections to to be connected to their culture. I don't know why you'd think that.

I'm talking about culture, not race.

[Electricmastro]

God, that's so bad.

I'm 100% feminist. I live, breathe, sleep, eat and take in new content as a feminist. But this page wreaks of what someone likely clueless on the matter thinks feminism is ("girl power! yay!"). There are so many better, nuanced, sophisticated ways to present feminist storytelling that is often lost for more blunt, Tell, Don't Show ways.

It has been made apparent to me that there are certain people out there who might mean well, but don’t have any sort of idea what they’re talking about or don’t explain concepts well/realistically enough to be given that much attention, and that those kinds of people who constantly complain about social issues online and/or in fiction probably wouldn’t know what the best way would be to go about helping solve the issue in real life. Not to say people can’t complain, but when one decides to enter the discussion of feminist equality using terms like “girl-power pass” and big-muscled, vein-ridden women imagery, then something tells me that maaaaaaaaaaybe quite a number of other feminists won’t be too quick to cheer on for you.