Hippolyta Is Bad At Picking Stories (WW #35 SPOILERS)

[Doctor Bifrost]

One of the titles of Zeus was the father of Heroes, Posidon was hit or miss (mostly miss) in that department while Hades... yeah right. Those are the big three like it or not. If your going to have hero connected to the Greek God why not Zeus? It a no brainer. It also keeps the old gods in play.

That's one of the reasons I dislike it. I see it as an unoriginal and uncreative choice - especially when it is used to "give the character a specific definition," to quote the author that introduced it. She basically becomes the female version of Hercules - who is the best-known Greek-related heroes, and one of the best-known fictional heroes, in the Western world. Why repeat that?

There are other ways to tie Diana directly and genealogically to the "old gods of Greek myth." She could be the mortal child of Aphrodite and a human man, given to Hippolyta to raise. (Hippolyta and Diana don't need to be genetically related. For most of the versions of the clay origin, they're not.) Or say Demeter had a son by a human father, and Hippolyta has an affair with that son. Now Diana's the granddaughter of Demeter. (And the fate of the father need not be relevant.)

One thing about these solutions - separate from any gender questions - is that they are different. As opposed to "the child of Zeus" (which, after all, was Cassie Sandsmark's origin), they are hardly ever used in heroic fiction.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I see Wonder Woman as a MYTHOLOGICAL HERO story that's gilded by the female experience. You see Wonder Woman as a FEMALE-centric story that's gilded by mythological elements.

I see it as both. You don't need to go to the Paternal Narrative to make Diana a mythological hero. (I mentioned other possibilities in my reply to Lokimaru.)

[sakuyamons]

Have you read Bifrost's Donna? It's huge and impressive.

I recall promising you my own Donna revision, but I think I still prefer immortal Diana and her sister Raven. I'm toying with a fanfic titled First Crisis with the Quintessence and Queen Hippolyte versus Darkseid in 1915.

I haven't, but I will soon We should all post our versions of Donna in a thread (or her thread). Though, I'll recognize that her origin is less clear to me than what Bifrost probably wrote, me and my friend are planning on doing some Wonder-verse anthologies. I'm currently trying to do some world-building around Themyschira and the creatures that live there, but the idea is still in the plans.

[sakuyamons]

I see it as both. You don't need to go to the Paternal Narrative to make Diana a mythological hero. (I mentioned other possibilities in my reply to Lokimaru.)

Wasn't Achilles a hero with a mortal dad and an immortal mother?

[Doctor Bifrost]

Wasn't Achilles a hero with a mortal dad and an immortal mother?

Yup. A quite rare example. The story is interesting:

Achilles was the son of the Nereid Thetis and of Peleus, the king of the Myrmidons. Zeus and Poseidon had been rivals for the hand of Thetis until Prometheus, the fore-thinker, warned Zeus of a prophecy (originally uttered by Themis, goddess of divine law) that Thetis would bear a son greater than his father. For this reason, the two gods withdrew their pursuit, and had her wed Peleus.

Men - male gods - are still running the show, of course, and making the choices for the women, but his mother - although a very minor immortal - is still of a higher order of being than his father. He doesn't get his invulnerability from his genetics, but she is the one who dips him in the pond (leaving only his heel vulnerable).

But when people (other than scholars) talk about Achilles, they hardly ever mention his mother, and I suspect 99 out of 100 people wouldn't recognize her name. So I don't think this exception really overwhelms the general trend. Now, if somebody wrote a story about Achilles that actually focused on his relationship with his mother, and examined how it affected him to have a nereid mom - really highlighted it - that, I think, would be very interesting.

[Awonder]

And now you seem disingenuous and sarcastic. I certainly don't mind elaborating, but your word choice suggests a troll trap.

*sigh* This makes me feel sad and very misunderstood. I know I'm argumentative, passionately so at times; I get that I can come across as aggressive and adversarial, especially when I really don't like something. I try to be cheeky for some fun, but that can quickly swerve too far into sarcasm. But, an insincere "troll trap"? That I don't get. I can be grumpy, but I do try to be genuine in my grumpiness. So, no, I'm not trying to troll you.

As for Zeus, I fully acknowledge that he, as a father god, benefits from a patriarchal paradigm, and the myths he's featured in perpetuate that paradigm. Within that paradigm, Zeus is the father of nearly all the Olympians and nearly all the mythological heroes of the ancient world. If you need a hero from Greek myth, Zeus is nearly always the father. It's a cliche, but it's a cliche that is an essential pillar of Greek myth. Zeus, before all else, is the Father archetype. "Father" is a secondary element to the understanding of other male gods --even to gods that have had thousands of children, like Oceanus.

What I'm not doing is apologizing or excusing his behavior in the myths that describe his character. Zeus is a product of his time and the people who wrote him into existence. But so is everyone --including the Amazon people. And his paradigmatic behavior, from the perspective of a responsive, defiant matriarchy, is delicious to explore. Zeus would still be worshipped as the archetypal father, but instead be regarded as its qlippothic inverse --the deadbeat, the narcissist, impregnation-as-pestilence. He would be their Lucifer.

It makes the nature and circumstances of Hippolyte's pregnancy both suspect and disastrous to the trust between mother and daughter. I know you say this is contrived drama, but Diana's relationship with her mother is the most significant relationship in the entire Wonder Woman franchise. In Diana's eyes, her mother goes from being a hero so beloved by the gods they created for her an immortal island, a protected queendom, and even a child... to being a frightened, hiding sovereign, a devil's whore, and a liar. Working her way through the truth, wrestling with forgiveness, understanding her mother as a complex woman and finding there's nothing to forgive... is the greatest story never told, yet.

Outside of an Amazonian context, Zeus-fathered heroes defeat beasts and fade into obscurity, as they are projections of their Zeus' effect on the human world. Diana's parentage is kept secret, so her character is constructed with an entirely Amazonian philosophy. She chooses her path in life long before she learns who her father is, unlike Zeus-fathered heroes of Greek myth. Zeus has absolutely nothing to do with her drives and goals. Similarly, the Amazonian philosophy of love and truth is what drove Hippolyte to forgive Zeus. Hippolyte's choice to forgive transformed him from the Olympian Devil to the father of her child.

I've said all this stuff before. I don't expect you to agree, but does it make sense?

Thank you for taking the time to type this out. If you have said it all before, I didn't get it before like I think I do now.

Of corse, I don't agree. My main complaint could be summarized with your word: yet. Your version does not exit - yet. Which, in my mind, at least, means you agree that the story we do have (for now) is not as good as it could be. Also, even if I did agree that this is the best direction to go, I have to ask: based on their track record, do you trust DC to handle this well?

I had hopes for Rucka and was disappointed by how loose the Truth and the Lies ended up. I had no such hopes for this trash that introduced Jason. I'm a grown man, and I choose to spend my money on books I know I'll enjoy.

Rucka could only do what they would allow him to do. Apparently, DC was always going to come back to Zeus, and Johns seems quite found of his long lost twin trope. Not being a fan of either of those ideas, I'm quite glad that the Rucka-Scott WW Year One ignores it. It's a beautiful escape for me.

[Awonder]

Wasn't Achilles a hero with a mortal dad and an immortal mother?

I'm quite curious as to how the Aquaman movie will handle this. They gave us a tasty tidbit of sorts in JL; do I dare hope that the Aquaman movie will give his mother her due? Or, will she, too, be just another mother that lies for the dramatic story effect and doesn't get to do much else?

Hmm, that makes me want a Atlanna and Hippolyta road trip adventure movie, directed by Patty, of course.

[CRaymond]

I see it as both.

Of course it's both. It's a 51/49 situation, and some of us are on one side and others are on the other.

You don't need to go to the Paternal Narrative to make Diana a mythological hero. (I mentioned other possibilities in my reply to Lokimaru.)

I read your essay. I understand your perspective. I feel to choose a different parentage would diminish the primacy and centralization of Wonder Woman in her Olympian myth origin. I realize you feel it's not creative and unoriginal. I feel it's unnecessary to avoid clear available archetypes in favor of authorial tastes.

He doesn't get his invulnerability from his genetics, but she is the one who dips him in the pond (leaving only his heel vulnerable).

I have to call crap on the notion that the myth of Achilles ignores mentioning his mother. I learned his invulnerability was due to his mother's actions LONG before I learned he was a hero of the Trojan War. Her actions resulted in a part of our anatomy being named for her son.

Also, even if I did agree that this is the best direction to go, I have to ask: based on their track record, do you trust DC to handle this well?

No, I don't trust them to handle anything well. But you've long known I'm a creative with my own ideas. I can applaud story elements chosen by other creatives and still be disappointed with the result. Otherwise I'd be wailing in despair everytime I see a DCEU movie.

[Awonder]

I feel to choose a different parentage would diminish the primacy and centralization of Wonder Woman in her Olympian myth origin. I realize you feel it's not creative and unoriginal. I feel it's unnecessary to avoid clear available archetypes in favor of authorial tastes.

How is she "diminished" if her father isn't Zeus? That seems very patriarchal to me. That because he is the center - not through merit as a person, but due to his patriarchal role - then she can only be central through him?

This just makes me want Gaia to come back and stomp on Olympus to remind them of how small they are to her.

I have to call crap on the notion that the myth of Achilles ignores mentioning his mother. I learned his invulnerability was due to his mother's actions LONG before I learned he was a hero of the Trojan War. Her actions resulted in a part of our anatomy being named for her son.

Yes, many people know of her for that one action. One. How many people can tell you her name? Aside from that one action, how often does she get to have her own story?

No, I don't trust them to handle anything well. But you've long known I'm a creative with my own ideas. I can applaud story elements chosen by other creatives and still be disappointed with the result. Otherwise I'd be wailing in despair everytime I see a DCEU movie.

Oh, I totally get that a potentially good idea can be poorly executed, in part, because I wail in despair at the DCEU movies not named WW (and even parts of that). But, even if this story idea can be made in to a good story, if that hasn't happened, yet, then just how good is the story we do have?

[CRaymond]

Yes, many people know of her for that one action. One. How many people can tell you her name? Aside from that one action, how often does she get to have her own story?

I thought we were contrasting the myth of Achilles with that of his mother. The most significant myth for the former is entirely the choice and action of the latter. Yes it’s unlikely people know Thetis by her name, but most of not all people will answer that it is his mother that holds his heel, not his father, brother, sister, wife, child or god. His mother is the active player in the story.

[Awonder]

I thought we were contrasting the myth of Achilles with that of his mother. The most significant myth for the former is entirely the choice and action of the latter. Yes it’s unlikely people know Thetis by her name, but most of not all people will answer that it is his mother that holds his heel, not his father, brother, sister, wife, child or god. His mother is the active player in the story.

You're right that Thetis gets to be more of an active player in this part of the story. But, Doctor Bifrost is also right that this is a rare example. My point is that even in this rare example, it could be better. It still doesn't really match up with how we often treat male characters in our narratives.

And, I noticed you didn't answer my other questions.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I feel to choose a different parentage would diminish the primacy and centralization of Wonder Woman in her Olympian myth origin...I feel it's unnecessary to avoid clear available archetypes in favor of authorial tastes.

I wrote something long here, but you know what? I'm just repeating myself, and this is not what I started the thread about. Be well.

[Awonder]

I wrote something long here, but you know what? I'm just repeating myself, and this is not what I started the thread about. Be well.

Shoot. I would have liked to have read that.

Hope I haven't strayed too far out of bounds for your intended topic. It can be difficult to know where to draw the line sometimes, as the topic of Hippolyta's stories to and about her children naturally lends itself back to the father and why she is telling these stories in the first place.

In Robinson's defense (of sorts), I haven't really thought of a good solution to Jason. Obviously, the set-up is such that he has to be sent away or something, right? So, while a quickly manufactured pen pal isn't what I would call a great idea, I'm just not creative enough myself to come up with something a whole lot better.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Hope I haven't strayed too far out of bounds for your intended topic.

Oh, please, what's a little thread drift between fellow Wonder Woman fans?

[sakuyamons]

We should have an official Wonder Woman discourse thread