Wonder Woman villains: how would you fix: The agents of War.

[Mel Dyer]

Well... COULD he? Sure, he's the god of war. But several of his children are thousands of years old. They have their own thing. Also... Strife apparently hangs out with Apollo in DC.

And seems to think Superman is awesome...


But, could Ares summon her to do his will? Probably.

I think there are comic stories that WW fans - because WW characters are so often misrepresented, outside of the WW comic - really must ignore and accept as a misrepresentation of the WW comic, ..and THIS would be a primary example.

If there's any Greek god that Superman should be defenseless against, it's obviously Apollo. As Apollo masters the power of light and the Sun, there's no way any Kyrptonian, each a living solar battery, could ever come close to destroying him. Keep in mind that Apollo isn't the sort of generic energy creature that Superman slaps around in his comics; he's an extra-dimensional intelligence, whose expression of power ..is the power of the Sun! As Superman is dependent on the Sun, for his very life - this has been shown in Dark Knight Returns and more recently in Batman v Superman - Apollo, who conceivably has the power to destroy him from the inside, at the molecular level, ..is his master and always will be!

This story from Superman/Wonder Woman should be regarded as (1) a delusion of Superman and Wonder Woman's, (2) an illusion, orchestrated by impostors of the Greek gods ..or (3) some kind of elaborate trick of Apollo's, designed to take measure of Superman's power. Stories like these, while accepted as canon, must be taken as some sort of warping of reality, by powerful godlike beings in the DCU ..or just an unchecked editorial mistake. A similar example would be the Superman story that claimed Wonder Woman joined Superman on a thousands years-long, secret adventure in DCU's Asgard, during which she hopelessly pined away for Superman's affection, only to find he was too much in love, with Lois Lane, to ever sleep with her - that simply did not and could not happen. The canonical repercussions of stories, like these, would rewrite the accepted history of the characters, involved; so, we must accept that they didn't unfold, as represented in the comic. Superman easily dispatching Apollo, a GOD, should never have been allowed to stand as canon, and any DC Comics editor should have quietly returned it to the writer, with a gently whispered...

"U-uuh, dude...no-ooo?"

Personally, ..I read this comic and giggled at how silly writers can be, when they write stories about WW characters, without reading the WW comic. No, Superman fans, your hero never bested the Greek god of the Sun, still worshipped on beaches, all over the world, every day, ..and in underdeveloped countries, with little or no electricity. No, Superman fans, Wonder Woman didn't sit around pining over Superman, for a THOUSAND YEARS, with a pile of lusty Asgardians to mess around with...Hades, no! I think we have to accept that comic writers and editors disdain to familiarize themselves with the Wonder-mythos, ..and that these stories, for whatever reasons, simply did not happen.

For me, the agents or 'Court' of War - Strife, Duke of Deception, Earl of Greed, Conquest, Silver Swan (original) - have never been used especially well. The Duke, Earl and Conquest saw their best stories, way back in the Marston days - even then, little more, than buffoons and never particularly awesome or terrifying. The original Silver Swan's best stories were pre-Crisis comics, in which, as a magically powered emissary of Ares, ..she battled Wonder Woman, as her equal. The agents, as I recall them, are as follows:

[Pinsir]

The Duke of Deception really only works in the original Marston comics and as a Silver Age villain. When they started to Hellenize Wonder Woman's world during the Bronze Age, he got the boot. Its actually odd because 'Mars' disappeared from the comic after the Golden Age (Even then he only had one appearance where as the Duke was a recurring villain) and during the Silver Age the Duke of Deception was something like Wonder Woman's arch nemesis. Angle Man appeared in a lot of Silver Age comics too, but he was just some gangster.

When they modernized the comic by making Wonder Woman fight with Kung Fu they quickly reintroduced Mars, I think as Ares, because he had his children in the Greek names with him (Eres, Phobos, Deimos), Since there was an emphasis on making Wonder Woman's world Greek sounding (such as changing the names of her pantheon from Roman to Greek), a title like Duke doesn't work.

If you try and modernize him, like say, what Legends of Wonder Woman did, you'd have to discard a lot of the characters previous identity (like being an invader from Mars) and I'd think you end up with a character like Dr. Psycho (his servant in the Golden Age).

[marhawkman]

If there's any Greek god that Superman should be defenseless against, it's obviously Apollo. As Apollo masters the power of light and the Sun, there's no way any Kyrptonian, each a living solar battery, could ever come close to destroying him. Keep in mind that Apollo isn't the sort of generic energy creature that Superman slaps around in his comics; he's an extra-dimensional intelligence, whose expression of power ..is the power of the Sun! As Superman is dependent on the Sun, for his very life - this has been shown in Dark Knight Returns and more recently in Batman v Superman - Apollo, who conceivably has the power to destroy him from the inside, at the molecular level, ..is his master and always will be!

If Apollo bothers to pay attention to that. Here he clearly was NOT.

For me, the agents or 'Court' of War - Strife, Duke of Deception, Earl of Greed, Conquest, Silver Swan (original) - have never been used especially well. The Duke, Earl and Conquest saw their best stories, way back in the Marston days - even then, little more, than buffoons and never particularly awesome or terrifying. The original Silver Swan's best stories were pre-Crisis comics, in which, as a magically powered emissary of Ares, ..she battled Wonder Woman, as her equal. The agents, as I recall them, are as follows:

"as follows"? Nothing follows... does that mean you don't remember them?

[WonderScott]

My gut reaction is that the Duke of Deception, Lord Conquest, and the Earl of Greed could be salvaged for modern storytelling, but they'll need a revamp and jettison some of the Golden Age and Silver Age trappings. (With Kiteman recently being explored in Batman, I'm even more of the mindset that their are no bad characters.)

Silver Swan is a tough one. The Valerie version was really a one-off as far as being a villain, since she kind of sees the error of her ways by the end of the story. The Vanessa Kapatelis version didn't work for me personally. It felt a little too Spider-Man-y that a such a close friend was turned into a villain, despite Psycho and Ballesteros machinations in her turn as Silver Swan. (I see Vanessa as Silver Swan is coming back in a future issue too.)

I'm coming around to an Ares-influenced Silver Swan, like Helena, as a better option as a villainess. She'd be an interesting additional as an agent of Ares alongside the DoD, Lord Conquest, and EoG.

[AmiMizuno]

Why not have the Duke of Deception actually be a Duke. That he missed the years of a directed Monarchy.He is a lot order them he seems. The Lord of Conquest can keep his title and can be the one to send wards of who owns what land but maybe instead of people who does it to mythical creatures because they are a lot more powerful. I don't know why not have Silver Swan be her on thing? I wonder what if The agents of war turned on Ares? Not in the sense they go go but rather using Rucka's version are angry that he doesn't want to be free and is happy he doesn't want war. They want to kill him to gain his powers.

[Mel Dyer]

Why not have the Duke of Deception actually be a Duke. That he missed the years of a directed Monarchy.He is a lot order them he seems. The Lord of Conquest can keep his title and can be the one to send wards of who owns what land but maybe instead of people who does it to mythical creatures because they are a lot more powerful. I don't know why not have Silver Swan be her on thing? I wonder what if The agents of war turned on Ares? Not in the sense they go go but rather using Rucka's version are angry that he doesn't want to be free and is happy he doesn't want war. They want to kill him to gain his powers.

I like your idea, and I have no problem with their European titles, ..duke, earl and the rest. Since they're immortals, it makes perfect sense, they might be lurking amidst the nobility and moneyed classes of modern Europe.

[AmiMizuno]

I like your idea, and I have no problem with their European titles, ..duke, earl and the rest. Since they're immortals, it makes perfect sense, they might be lurking amidst the nobility and moneyed classes of modern Europe.

Thanks and rereading I need to stay way from writing on my iPhone. I wonder how do you see the agents of war fighting with Ares? I didn’t want humans because like in the movie they see the humans don’t need their help just a little push. So they should be starting wars with the mythical creatures and beings. Maybe Silver Swan could be older but maybe she could be something else than just an agent of war. How about a foot solider ?

[marhawkman]

I like your idea, and I have no problem with their European titles, ..duke, earl and the rest. Since they're immortals, it makes perfect sense, they might be lurking amidst the nobility and moneyed classes of modern Europe.

That kind of makes sense. I mean as demi-gods they'd have plenty of ability to work their way into a position like that. And it gives them the comfortable lifestyle immortals seem to crave.

[SiegePerilous02]

Deception, Greed and Conquest could be revamped, but they are kind of redundant with Deimos and Phobos around, not to mention Eris/Strife. Deception's powers kind of overlap with Psycho as well.

Eris has numerous kids in Greek mythology and if we have to have a story focusing on Ares and his background dancers, I'd like to see them trotted out. Dysnomia, Lethe, Horkos, Ate, Limos, etc. all sound really cool and have potential.

Also, I'm kind of bummed that the Silver Swan coming back is Vanessa and not Helen Alexanderos, who has the best origin. The friend gone bad thing is already done by Barbara Ann, so this makes Diana look like she really sucks at taking care of her loved ones. I think she's tied with Batman now (Cheetah/Silver Swan vs. Two-Face/Red Hood). And Jason Todd has been (more or less) reformed.

[AmiMizuno]

Deception, Greed and Conquest could be revamped, but they are kind of redundant with Deimos and Phobos around, not to mention Eris/Strife. Deception's powers kind of overlap with Psycho as well.

Eris has numerous kids in Greek mythology and if we have to have a story focusing on Ares and his background dancers, I'd like to see them trotted out. Dysnomia, Lethe, Horkos, Ate, Limos, etc. all sound really cool and have potential.

Also, I'm kind of bummed that the Silver Swan coming back is Vanessa and not Helen Alexanderos, who has the best origin. The friend gone bad thing is already done by Barbara Ann, so this makes Diana look like she really sucks at taking care of her loved ones. I think she's tied with Batman now (Cheetah/Silver Swan vs. Two-Face/Red Hood). And Jason Todd has been (more or less) reformed.

Wel Dr.Pysho did work as a human agent for Mars. I mean why not Lord, Earl and Greed be Ares children minions? That all three are immoral but only because their human's who want power. That maybe Ares children who want something can't get to did because it's blocked by gods and only humans may enter. Maybe tge agents of war should prefer to his children into taking over their father powers. I do like the original silver idea but I kind of think maybe she should be her own thing from Ares.

[AmiMizuno]

I mean if do right you can have agents of war be two different groups. Lord, Earl, and Greed do one goal, while his children do another.Like after Ares allowed himself to be taken they want to kill him

[Mel Dyer]

The Duke of Deception really only works in the original Marston comics and as a Silver Age villain. When they started to Hellenize Wonder Woman's world during the Bronze Age, he got the boot. Its actually odd because 'Mars' disappeared from the comic after the Golden Age (Even then he only had one appearance where as the Duke was a recurring villain) and during the Silver Age the Duke of Deception was something like Wonder Woman's arch nemesis. Angle Man appeared in a lot of Silver Age comics too, but he was just some gangster.

When they modernized the comic by making Wonder Woman fight with Kung Fu they quickly reintroduced Mars, I think as Ares, because he had his children in the Greek names with him (Eres, Phobos, Deimos), Since there was an emphasis on making Wonder Woman's world Greek sounding (such as changing the names of her pantheon from Roman to Greek), a title like Duke doesn't work.

If you try and modernize him, like say, what Legends of Wonder Woman did, you'd have to discard a lot of the characters previous identity (like being an invader from Mars) and I'd think you end up with a character like Dr. Psycho (his servant in the Golden Age).

Can't believe I missed this--gr'rrrea-aatt post, Pinsir!

Honestly, Pinsir, ..I think you could take Darkseid, re-imagine him, as an evolved Greek god of war, with Apokolips, a reimagined 'Martian base', ..and you would have Marston's very cosmic, quirky, Dunesy ..MARS!

So, I beg to differ with you, on the viability of restoring Dr. Marston's pulpy, cosmic zap to the Court of Mars--especially, the Court of Mars. Re-imagine the original, Ares-powered Silver Swan, ..and you get Grail. With almost no re-imagining, at all, Glorious Godfrey is an evolved Duke of Deception. Tweak up Steppenwolf, with psionic-possession powers, in addition to his brawn and mastery of weapons, ..and you've got Conquest. A little re-focusing, very little, of the Earl of Greed reintroduces him, as the head of Intergang. There's plenty of upgrade potential, here, and has been for decades. The problem with DC Comics going full-Marston, on Wonder Woman's Greek gods, is that Jack Kirby did it, better ..and already!

Yeah, maybe, Robert Kanigher or Mike Sekowsky couldn't out-imagine Jack Kirby, ..but, I was just using the New Gods, as an example. Brian Azzarello made them a mix of Neil Gaiman's Sandman gods, Addams Family, and Doctor Who's rogues gallery, and our fan community panned it, ..but, it was a solid try. I'm not crazy about the cosmic stuff Gail Simone attempted, particularly, with Zeus - little too Star Trekky, for me - but, she sure, as hell, tried. I would like the Marston cosmic angle given another try, by an imaginative writer.

My gut reaction is that the Duke of Deception, Lord Conquest, and the Earl of Greed could be salvaged for modern storytelling, but they'll need a revamp and jettison some of the Golden Age and Silver Age trappings. (With Kiteman recently being explored in Batman, I'm even more of the mindset that their are no bad characters.)

Silver Swan is a tough one. The Valerie version was really a one-off as far as being a villain, since she kind of sees the error of her ways by the end of the story. The Vanessa Kapatelis version didn't work for me personally. It felt a little too Spider-Man-y that a such a close friend was turned into a villain, despite Psycho and Ballesteros machinations in her turn as Silver Swan. (I see Vanessa as Silver Swan is coming back in a future issue too.)

I'm coming around to an Ares-influenced Silver Swan, like Helena, as a better option as a villainess. She'd be an interesting additional as an agent of Ares alongside the DoD, Lord Conquest, and EoG.

Not to beat Jack Kirby's Fourth World to death, again, Scott, ..but, I can TOTALLY see the original Silver Swan (Helena) re-imagined and further powered-up, as a Silver Surfer'ish herald to a new, cosmic Ares. I agree with you, on the Valerie and Vanessa versions, which don't work for me, beyond those first one or two stories. In a Marstonian twist, I imagine some story revealing that both women had been possessed and manipulated, by the demonic spirit of a Hollywood actress, Helena Sanders, who was killed on a USO tour, in the 1940s, ..before consecrating her outrage to Ares, on the astral plane...

Or something like that.

Silver Swan is a conqueror and a destroyer! As originally conceived, it is Helena's sole reason for existence--to conquer the men...the people, whose love she could never have! Why stop there? Mad, with cosmic awareness, ..why shouldn't she devote her life to snuffing out free will, in every sentient being, across the known universe, ..like Grail is supposed to be doing? After Ares makes her into an indestructible, metal thing, flying around, incinerating entire armies, with some god-like display of cosmic power, why shouldn't Silver Swan, ..having no more use for the love couldn't have, in life, ..use the cosmic might of Ares, to subjugate humanity? What a villain, for Wonder Woman! Where is the imagination, when it comes to writing WW and creating her rogues? Seriously...

Truthfully, coming out of the Bronze Age, the WW comic's archnemesis question should have been closed, with further development of Silver Swan. I'm so tired of the WW comic coming up short, on imaginative villains.

[Gaius]

I'd combine Ares' kids, Phobos and Deimos at least, with some of his pre-Crisis Mars minions. Would also take a note from Gods of Gotham and Legend of WW that they posses the bodies of mortals to interact with the world.

Deimos/Duke of Deception

Phobos/Lord Conquest

Eris/Strife as pretty much her New 52 version but can switch up her appearance on a whim.

For Silver Swan, I'd make it Helen but would eventually have Ares strip her of her powers and she falls in with Godwatch who give her the mechanical body horror design Vanessa has.