Wonder Woman villain: how would you fix him/her: Circe

[Agent Z]

I'd say just giving her a consistent look and personality could work. That said I did propose an idea for an alternate take on Circe once

My idea for a Circe story. Remember the part in the Odyssey where Odyseus and his men stumble across Circe's island and get turned into animals? I'd add a twist to that. Odyseus and his men do find the island but instead are given shelter and food by Circe who has no ill intentions toward them. However, Odyseus drugs Circe and ribs her home and kills her daughter Lyra. On their way, some of Odyseus' men consume a plant that was on Circe's island which turns them into beasts and kill some of the men who weren't turned. This betrayal by Odyseus as well as the following slander would be what sets Circe on a path to darkness. She'd also try to appeal to the Amazons as both are women who've been shunned and slandered by the world if men.

So what do you guys think?

[Mel Dyer]

I'd say just giving her a consistent look and personality could work. That said I did propose an idea for an alternate take on Circe once

As tired, as I am, of the 'scorned diva' elements of her backstory, I suppose I could emotionally invest, if the injustices that she suffered were big enough. For me, because writers insist on presenting her as this larger-than-life character, her origin and motivations must be equally larger-than-life ..and almost beyond human reckoning. I think Circe's origin has to justify her motivations and ambitions, ..or she simply doesn't work, as Wonder Woman's archenemy - the greatest supervillain, she's ever faced, justifying thirty years of comic stories! If being a wronged woman is the centerpiece of her act (so to speak), I think the wrong has to be a proportionately HUGE wrong, because Circe is so over-the-top, anyway. On the other side of all that hurt and injustice, even though, she's the villain, ..I've also got to feel Circe deserves her revenge.

So, again, and maybe, it's just me, ..but, I need to see the diva at her absolute lowest, before I throw any roses, her way.

[Outside_85]

Well, her motivation for arming herself with the secrets of the universe needn't be reserved for consideration of Helios.

It could extend to her dread of what Zeus and the Olympians did to Hecate and ALL of the Titans of Myth. These beings were gods, prayed to by kings, ..and the Olympians cut them down, like so much wheat - being the progeny of a Titan, that's got to be especially scary for her. There's no telling what bizarre, nightmarish things Circe might have seen on her travels, throughout the world - the cosmos - that motivated her to master the black arts. It's very likely that she learned, early in life, that terrible things happen to you, when you've got no power, ..and went about insuring that would never be her! Perhaps, she's resolved not end up, like Helios or Hecate.

Would require a bit of a rewrite since the Titanomancy wasn't a full blown genocide, Zeus and his allies dispatched those who stood in his way but there were plenty of Titans who escaped his wrath... like Prometheus, Aphrodite, Metis and Hecate. In the classical senses that is. I think Helios also escaped somewhat, but became charged with riding around with the sun.
I can go along with Circe starting out with the spark of power, sets out to seek knowledge of who she is and what her power can become, and then along the way be corrupted by what she learns and sees. I dont see her fall as something that just happens, but something she slowly goes through... like first being repulsed by the idea of murder (or living sacrifices), and slowly getting better at it before it turns into something she's completely fine with.

One of my biggest problems with Circe's story has been the scorned 'diva' elements, and I think giving her a loss, easy to sympathize with, might navigate some of us around that problem. I've read her story and her dialogue, all of it, glazed with self-pity and entitlement, and thought, "[Rhymes with witch], please...nobody owes you jack-[Rhymes with sit]!" I suggested shifting attention from Hecate to Helios, simply because the loss of what Helios represents, as a god - light, life, knowledge, hope - is somewhat easier for me to grasp, than what transpired, between Circe and Hecate - but, that's just my problem with it. If something about her history with Hecate (and keep it simple) could be made a sympathetic point in her story, maybe, I could get on the 'go-Circe' bandwagon. So far...

I tend to read her with much the same kind of voice that I read Emma Frost with, she's powerful, arrogant, beautiful and she knows that and no one is worthy to kiss her boots.
Couple that with the hasty outline from before, I would still use that, but now she uses it because she's seen the horrors and burned the villages that she doesn't need to take cack from anyone on gods green earth.

Well...no.

In the Kill Bill movies, one of the antagonists says of the heroic Bride, "That woman DESERVES her revenge...", and I think that's where writers need to take us, with Circe's backstory. Again, maybe, it's just me, ..but, I need to see Circe, at her lowest point, ..before the big hair, big clothes, energy bolts and (most of all) attitude. I think, if we're ever going to get beyond the prancing diva thing, which never really impressed or moved me, the struggle of how Circe comes to be, who she is, ..is essential.

That would be helpful, simply seeing what made Circe the way she is now.

[Mel Dyer]

Would require a bit of a rewrite since the Titanomancy wasn't a full blown genocide, Zeus and his allies dispatched those who stood in his way but there were plenty of Titans who escaped his wrath... like Prometheus, Aphrodite, Metis and Hecate. In the classical senses that is. I think Helios also escaped somewhat, but became charged with riding around with the sun...

I tend to read her with much the same kind of voice that I read Emma Frost with, she's powerful, arrogant, beautiful and she knows that and no one is worthy to kiss her boots.
Couple that with the hasty outline from before, I would still use that, but now she uses it because she's seen the horrors and burned the villages that she doesn't need to take cack from anyone on gods green earth.

That would be helpful, simply seeing what made Circe the way she is now.

Now, bear with me..."Who Is Wonder Girl?" was a long time ago, and my recollection of it might be a little off, ..but, I'm pretty sure that the Helios of the DCU was cast into Tartarus with the other so-called Titans of Myth. I understand that isn't his fate in the classical Greek myth, in which he continues, as a bearded, old man, ..but pretty sure that's how Marv Wolfman treated it, in his adaptation. A golden-tressed Helios is shown falling into Tartarus, with the Titans, but, later, escapes ..and follows them into outer space, where they start a training camp for alien kid superheroes ..and generally ruin Donna Troy's origin, for decades to come.

Somebody want to look this up, somewhere? I'm just too tired, right now.

I think Emma Frost is a good example of what can be done for Circe - how she could be developed. If there wasn't this expectation, among fans (and I'm not one of them) and writers, that she's Wonder Woman's proper archenemy, I don't think it would matter much, ..but, that is where we tend to find Circe. If she's going to be out front, as this classic supervillain, standing as equal to Luthor and the Joker, I think her narrative needs to be more suggestive of depth and scope - suggestive...we don't need a NOVEL - and it's got to be universally appealing and easy to understand. The X-books did a great job with making us feel that Emma is more, than a silly, mean-spirited provocateur prancing around in white, leather lingerie; Circe needs a similar approach, by future WW writers.

[Agent Z]

edited post. never mind.

[Mel Dyer]

The greatest supervillains have origins and motivations that most of us come very close to sympathizing with, ..and I see no reason why Circe can't be one of them. I think Luthor, the Joker and Magneto are prime examples of that. Simply put, even though they're bad guys, who'd kill us, as soon as look at us, ..most of us get why they're doing what they're doing. Furthermore, from some angles - in the hands of some very skilled writers - their actions even seem almost justified, sometimes...almost. Circe, unfortunately, hasn't had that sort of writer tell her stories.

Doesn't mean it can't happen. The heroic Bride in the Kill Bill movies (and she is heroic) deserves her revenge. Maybe, one day, in some classic story, ..so will Circe.

And another thing...I never said we were supposed to sympathize with Circe, completely. I've said 'very close' or something like that, throughout the discussion. Hope none of you missed that.

[Deniz Camp]

My favorite take on Circe was the impossible, divine creature from MEN AT WAR. Unknowable and ethereal and grand.

I'd say go for something more like that.

[Agent Z]

The greatest supervillains have origins and motivations that most of us come very close to sympathizing with, ..and I see no reason why Circe can't be one of them. I think Luthor, the Joker and Magneto are prime examples of that. Simply put, even though they're bad guys, who'd kill us, as soon as look at us, ..most of us get why they're doing what they're doing. Furthermore, from some angles - in the hands of some very skilled writers - their actions even seem almost justified, sometimes...almost. Circe, unfortunately, hasn't had that sort of writer tell her stories.

Doesn't mean it can't happen. The heroic Bride in the Kill Bill movies (and she is heroic) deserves her revenge. Maybe, one day, in some classic story, ..so will Circe.

And another thing...I never said we were supposed to sympathize with Circe, completely. I've said 'very close' or something like that, throughout the discussion. Hope none of you missed that.

Joker doesn't have a sympathetic origin; he has bunch of fake backstories he uses depending on his mood.

[marhawkman]

I'm pretty sure that the Helios of the DCU was cast into Tartarus with the other so-called Titans of Myth.

Helios wasn't the main force in that story, it was Hyperion. In fact Helios wasn't even one of the 12 Titans who were named as part of that group.

In the Kill Bill movies, one of the antagonists says of the heroic Bride, "That woman DESERVES her revenge...", and I think that's where writers need to take us, with Circe's backstory. Again, maybe, it's just me, ..but, I need to see Circe, at her lowest point, ..before the big hair, big clothes, energy bolts and (most of all) attitude. I think, if we're ever going to get beyond the prancing diva thing, which never really impressed or moved me, the struggle of how Circe comes to be, who she is, ..is essential.

Enh, you know who wrote THE definitive origin for Circe right? Homer. Hard to get more of a "classical" origin than that.

Also, in the classic version Circe was born with powers and isn't really human. She's not really a sorceress since she's not channeling power. She wields her OWN power. It's that lack of humanity that makes her act like a diva. She knows she's too powerful for any mere mortal to best her so she treats them like toys.

In at least one comic, it's said that the DC version of Circe(not Hecate) is a daughter of Hyperion.

I'm not even sure why writers have ever written her as being connected to Hecate in the comics. Clearly they HAVE, in one comic ARES claims that for reason he cannot fathom Hecate decided to give her powers to Circe.... Some stories seem to take this as an indication that Circe uses Hecate's power but she had power of her own. I just realized something hilarious. In DC, Circe's daughter Hippolyta was born with purple hair. This would seem to suggest that Circe's purple hair is her natural hair color as well.

There's no telling what bizarre, nightmarish things Circe might have seen on her travels, throughout the world - the cosmos - that motivated her to master the black arts.

I'd stay far away from writing her like Dr. Strange or Dr. Fate. Like I said, she uses magic, but it's a different kind of magic than mere wizards possess.

[WonderScott]

Interesting discussion about Circe. I'm all for exploring the Year Once concept you've been discussing and Circe's travels through the millennia to becoming the contemporary character today. Circe should have a miniseries for her odyssey, if you will, showing her transformation. We don't need another capricious god for the sake of capriciousness.

I'm more of a Perezian and Ruckaian than anything regarding Circe - the newer take about trading her soul and redesign just didn't resonate with me nearly as much. Perez's Barbara Minerva always seemed more Emma Frost-ish to me to with her haughty attitude and privileged upbringing. I guess I can see it in Circe too, but with a little more touch of the enigmatic, for a being that we assume has seen and accomplished a lot in her lifetime.

I'd kind of like to see Aeaea get redeveloped again as her seat of power. The island is an interesting parallel to Themyscira. I see it as a beautiful pastoral setting, yet also a garden of horrors (beastiamorphs, etc.)

[Outside_85]

Interesting discussion about Circe. I'm all for exploring the Year Once concept you've been discussing and Circe's travels through the millennia to becoming the contemporary character today. Circe should have a miniseries for her odyssey, if you will, showing her transformation. We don't need another capricious god for the sake of capriciousness.

If it was to be put into film, I was actually thinking about a 'Fall of Smeagol/Rise of Gollum' kind of thing. We get a decent impression of her first and then sees her fall deeper and deeper over the course of her journey.

[AmiMizuno]

Circe, her husband died at the hands of her father due to some cruel joke by the Greek gods. Her mother threating the gods for this joke locked her away but she gives her daughter her powers. The amazons due to Circe destroying many of the mythical artificials the Greeks loved. Heck maybe she should actually turn one of the gods into an animals and they can't turn back. Circe locked away in a small planet in space meets many different creatures. Coming back she is simply angry that the amazons still worship the Greek gods. She fights Diana because Diana puts her faith completely in the Gods even when they have wronged her. She should be able to keep her angry in check ad keeps herself for the limelight.

[Slowpokeking]

I would make her a shapeshifter instead of pure magic user, and make her story closer to the mythology.

[Michael Watkins]

after a quick glance, she needs a distinctive and relatively unchanging look. she's visually forgettable. Cheetah looks like a cheetah. Giganta is big. Doctor Psycho is short. Circe looks like an unused fantasy-themed video game design. if she appeared in live-action, I'm sure that they'd give her a memorable design; that would start to be used in the comics.

[Lex Luthor]

The only problem is her lack of motivation. I dont think there needs to be a reason for why she's evil or a narcissist.