Wonder Woman villain: how would you fix him/her: Circe

[AmiMizuno]

I don't consider Circe not really archenemy for Diana. Rather someone who wants to make her suffer due to the pain she wants to or just wants to annoy Diana from time to time. She sometimes isn't an enemy or villain just a troublemaker. What role would her children make in Wonder Woman

[RepHope]

I think that's an interesting idea: Circe - any version of Circe - presiding over an island colony of fallen gods, demons, alien tyrants and monsters...all loyal to her and devoted to destroying Wonder Woman. I think it would be equally interesting, if the fallen gods and monsters had been brought low by Circe, herself, ..having once persecuted her, during or soon after the fall of the Titans of Myth. That's the kind of thing that might work for a Circe: Year One comic.

Love that idea, Mizuno!



What do you imagine James would do with her that would be so objectionable? Just curious - not asking to be critical ..and quietly hoping your answer will be hilarious. Truthfully, I was hoping he would squeeze Rucka's version into the end of this "Amazons" arc ..just to establish Who-ish Circe, as the new standard.

Honestly? I think whatever he would do would just be boring. I just am not confident in his ability to weave a compelling story for the character, or any character really. I guess he might try to have her and Jason hook up since that's what he did with Grail which was emotionally underwhelming.

I don't consider Circe not really archenemy for Diana. Rather someone who wants to make her suffer due to the pain she wants to or just wants to annoy Diana from time to time. She sometimes isn't an enemy or villain just a troublemaker. What role would her children make in Wonder Woman

I don't think Diana even has an archenemy right now. The archenemy is someone (imo) who is the source of a great deal of anger and hurt for the main hero/heroine. They are also the product of years of buildup to justify that status. Joker and Lex both make obvious sense as archenemies because they've both been built up to be that over decades worth of stories. Professor Zoom/Reverse-Flash for Barry also makes sense (issues with Johns giving him dead mommy issues aside). Arthur and Manta, Sinestro and Hal, they've all been the beneficiaries of decades of writers continuously using them and building up their fight.

Diana has suffered in this regard in part because a. writers don't use her classic rogues for whatever reason, and b. Diana's rogues have often been portrayed as a joke, both inside and outside of comics. Cheetah and Cale are the closest characters I think who could be her archenemy, but both of them need more build-up, and I'm leery of Cale taking the role. She's a little too similar to Lex for my taste, I don't want WW accused of ripping off Supes.

[kjn]

I don't think Diana even has an archenemy right now. The archenemy is someone (imo) who is the source of a great deal of anger and hurt for the main hero/heroine. They are also the product of years of buildup to justify that status. Joker and Lex both make obvious sense as archenemies because they've both been built up to be that over decades worth of stories. Professor Zoom/Reverse-Flash for Barry also makes sense (issues with Johns giving him dead mommy issues aside). Arthur and Manta, Sinestro and Hal, they've all been the beneficiaries of decades of writers continuously using them and building up their fight.

Agreed. Good archenemies aren't so much created as discovered, as readers and writers explore the characters.

I think there are four decent candidates for a good archenemy of Wonder Woman, but they all have their different pros and cons. I don't think Circe is a good candidate, since my impression from my rusty knowledge of Greek mythology is that she preferred to stay on her island, so more obstacle than active antagonist.

Ares is of course the first one, the archetype of one form of toxic masculinity. He certainly has the stature needed, but in a way he's not likely to be hung up or obsessed with Wonder Woman to the degree needed, and would put the stories far too often to the high mythical state.

Cheetah is in a way Wonder Woman's dark mirror, and that's always a good start. On paper, I think she is the most promising candidate.

Doctor Psycho is the archetype of another form of toxic masculinity, but he carries with him a huge dose of ableism. He might also be a bit too asymmetrical a threat to Diana.

The last one is Doctor Poison, who I believe is a better alternative than Veronica Cale. Mad scientists are always good villains. She still carries with herself more than a bit of ableism, but I think it is easier to deal with than Doctor Psycho's, maybe even go so far as not having her disfigured at all.

[AmiMizuno]

Sadly Dr.Poison doesn't have her mad scientist background. She is some kind of army woman. I do think that you can have both. She is involved in terrorist group.

[AmiMizuno]

I think that's an interesting idea: Circe - any version of Circe - presiding over an island colony of fallen gods, demons, alien tyrants and monsters...all loyal to her and devoted to destroying Wonder Woman. I think it would be equally interesting, if the fallen gods and monsters had been brought low by Circe, herself, ..having once persecuted her, during or soon after the fall of the Titans of Myth. That's the kind of thing that might work for a Circe: Year One comic.

Love that idea, Mizuno!

| do have to wonder what fallen gods would be there? If Circe does have any relationship with the Titans I would say maybe she should treat them like family. One thing in my head for a while is what if Zeus was one of the fallen Gods? That somehow Circe got him to her island and turned him into a pig.

[WonderScott]

Rucka's take on Circe in his second run didn't leave a huge impression on me as she was a relatively minor character in the story arc. I can see the appeal though - she is a modern take and I'm a proponent of neither the Amazons or gods being stagnant in personality or appearance over the millennia they've existed. (Not that I'm against a showstopper of a costume once in a while for the gods when they reveal themselves and their power.) And it fit overall for Rucka's grounding take on most of the characters he featured.

Circe's had a few too many looks and takes on her character since the DCnU, so I'd stick with Rucka's Rebirth version out of all of them.

I agree with others' comments that one aspect of her motivation could be how she and the other Titans were maligned by the Olympians. I also like Circe with a hint of misandry, based on what I imagine she's run up against in her lifetime and in her relationships. It makes for an interesting theme juxtaposed to Diana and the Amazon's philosophy and feelings about men and women (if we ever get to dig into that.) She's a bit more about overt power and subjugation instead of lifting others up and equality. Other parallels I like are her army of Beastimorphs (versus Amazons), her island (Aeaea vs Themyscira), royalty (princess of sorts vs princess), godliness (goddess vs demigod), etc.

I prefer her as being more devious than a trickster character, but some of the latter could work in terms of capriciousness of the gods in their machinations.

I've been working on her a little bit, as I been trying to plot a magic story in the greater DCU and she's one of the main characters central to uniting many of the magic-users.

I wonder if she'll show up in anything after No Justice when Diana is leading Justice League Dark? As one of the most powerful magic-users in the DCU, it seems like the perfect place for her to show up with the plot line of magic supposedly changing in the DCU with the big hole currently in the Source Wall.

[Mel Dyer]

...I agree with others' comments that one aspect of her motivation could be how she and the other Titans were maligned by the Olympians. I also like Circe with a hint of misandry, based on what I imagine she's run up against in her lifetime and in her relationships. It makes for an interesting theme juxtaposed to Diana and the Amazon's philosophy and feelings about men and women (if we ever get to dig into that.) She's a bit more about overt power and subjugation instead of lifting others up and equality. Other parallels I like are her army of Beastimorphs (versus Amazons), her island (Aeaea vs Themyscira), royalty (princess of sorts vs princess), godliness (goddess vs demigod), etc...

I can imagine a time that things got really ugly for the earthbound and demigod Titans.

I can imagine a world, in which the most powerful, celestial Titans and the giants and some of the monsters had been cast into Tartarus, ..leaving their half-mortal offspring and the lesser Titans very, very vulnerable. I can imagine an age, during which the monsters and giants and even the worshippers of the celestial Titans, fearing Zeus's wrath, swore fealty to the Olympians and turned on their own. I can imagine a time when the demigod Titans found themselves hunted by those monsters - even by the very priests and kings, who had worshipped their divine parents. I can imagine the half-mortal and lesser Titans hunted by armies and demons and magic, with no one they could trust and nowhere to hide...

And I can imagine Circe, long before Aeaea and Odysseus and random sailors, being smack in the middle of that. What kind of being survives all of that? What's her story? I can imagine her regard for human beings, like the ones who turned on her and the Titans...how could she have anything, but, contempt for them? I can imagine her regard for men being very misandrist, indeed.

If that was Circe: Year One, I would totally check that out.

Let me also say that I think Christopher Priest might possibly be the worst thing that ever happened to Circe. I remember liking his de-classicization of her, initially. Right after Zero Hour, it was fresh, modern...geez, did that go south, fast? In Perez's hands and for most of the time, up until Bill Loebs's "The Contest", she was shrill, clichéd, but, still a little mysterious...creepy. Suddenly, she was this vulgar, grating ego-monster that I couldn't stand, and I think that started with Wonder Woman #89, ..penned by Christopher Priest.

[AmiMizuno]

Well not all the powerful titans well to Tartarus. Titans like Thetis and Hecate were still around. This leads me to think what if Circe’s island became a safe haven for many titans. I think Rhea might have been alive in the myths too

[WonderScott]

I can imagine a time that things got really ugly for the earthbound and demigod Titans.

I can imagine a world, in which the most powerful, celestial Titans and the giants and some of the monsters had been cast into Tartarus, ..leaving their half-mortal offspring and the lesser Titans very, very vulnerable. I can imagine an age, during which the monsters and giants and even the worshippers of the celestial Titans, fearing Zeus's wrath, swore fealty to the Olympians and turned on their own. I can imagine a time when the demigod Titans found themselves hunted by those monsters - even by the very priests and kings, who had worshipped their divine parents. I can imagine the half-mortal and lesser Titans hunted by armies and demons and magic, with no one they could trust and nowhere to hide...

And I can imagine Circe, long before Aeaea and Odysseus and random sailors, being smack in the middle of that. What kind of being survives all of that? What's her story? I can imagine her regard for human beings, like the ones who turned on her and the Titans...how could she have anything, but, contempt for them? I can imagine her regard for men being very misandrist, indeed.

If that was Circe: Year One, I would totally check that out.[/IMG]

Yes, this. This is similar to what I was imagining as well and it all gives Circe more than a single motivation when comes to an adversarial relationship with Diana and the Amazons.

I always liked Perez's idea of Dooms Doorway and the aspect of the Amazons penance by the gods to guard it and the "horrors" it contains. It doesn't take to much imagination to think that some of Circe's Titan brethren trapped, for better or worse (in some cases), there. I guess we have to wait and see what unfolds for the Rebirth Amazons whenever we get to spend some more time with them...

As a consummate manipulator, one who has learned to play the long game over millennia, I'd love to see Circe more involved in the DCU at large. After a serious and character-setting tale in Wonder Woman, I'd be curious to see her interact with other villains.

Her dealings with Luthor in the past have left me flat - mostly because she was never treated as an equal to him repeatedly. Which is just wrong and more out of propping up the Superman franchise out of habit than out of believable characterization and plot lines. I'd enjoy her interacting with Luthor again, but on more balanced terms.

Alternately, there's a certain enjoyment I can see with Circe interacting with other "immortals" - Ra's al Ghul, Vandal Savage, the Wizard (formerly known as Shazam), etc., each hellbent on manipulating historical events for good or evil. There are some "times past" stories of the DCU just waiting to be written. There was some Ra's al Ghul and Circe interaction in a recent Trinity storyline, but it was rather lackluster in action and characterization IMO. Someone can do better and should.

Animosity between Circe and Doctor Psycho might be an interesting read, but I'd be just as intrigued at Circe being the secret power in the shadows running the Secret Society of Super-Villains, similarly to how Darkseid played that role in the past.

Regardless, she deserves a more formidable role in the DCU whether it's with other villains or in opposition to the Justice League.

[WonderScott]

Well not all the powerful titans well to Tartarus. Titans like Thetis and Hecate were still around. This leads me to think what if Circe’s island became a safe haven for many titans. I think Rhea might have been alive in the myths too

I think that that's what Mel is getting at...some may be in hiding elsewhere in the DCU or perhaps they were hunted down and trapped by other Olympians millennia ago and restrained and diminished by other means.

I kind of like the idea of Circe being the bravest and most cunning of the remaining Titans. Operating in the world in defiance of the Olympians as a measure of the power she's painstakingly gained and learned to wield.

[AmiMizuno]

Some like Thetis I think wouldn’t be in hidden due to the fact she is still alive in most myths and is respected by the Olympians. Maybe Rhea and some of the titans sees how the amazons could also be a safe haven. In many Wonder Woman storylines the amazons have some kind of connections to the amazons .

[WonderScott]

Some like Thetis I think wouldn’t be in hidden due to the fact she is still alive in most myths and is respected by the Olympians. Maybe Rhea and some of the titans sees how the amazons could also be a safe haven. In many Wonder Woman storylines the amazons have some kind of connections to the amazons .

True. It all depends in how you want to portray the Titans and their offspring in the DCU. I need to read up more about Thetis to see if she'd make and interesting character in a superhero world. I know she was the mother of Achilles too, so there might be something their if they ever Rebirth Achilles Warkiller.

[marhawkman]

I think that that's what Mel is getting at...some may be in hiding elsewhere in the DCU or perhaps they were hunted down and trapped by other Olympians millennia ago and restrained and diminished by other means.

I kind of like the idea of Circe being the bravest and most cunning of the remaining Titans. Operating in the world in defiance of the Olympians as a measure of the power she's painstakingly gained and learned to wield.

Yeah, kinda like a magical version of Doctor Doom. People don't LIKE her, but they leave her alone as long as she doesn't leave her fortified city-state of Aeaea. Circe's not on good terms with the gods, but has enough power the gods aren't willing to declare open war on her. So her servants could include a bunch of random dudes who are enemies of the gods.

Some of the lesser Titans actually moved to Olympus. Unlike many of the modern portrayals, in the myths many of the Titans gave up and surrendered after Zeus killed their leader. In return they weren't hunted down and killed.

[AmiMizuno]

There are a few where many Titans were sealed in Hades. So maybe a few titans side with Circe?

[Mel Dyer]

It's almost painful how we struggle to justify her presence and status in the WW comic? The Golden Age Circe was after Diana, because she was banished to the 'Farthest Star' (I think), by the Amazons, ..where God knows what happened to her - must have been pretty bad, though. That's such a simple motivation for Circe, and it should have NEVER been changed.

I want that back, like so-ooo badly.

There was something, back then, about a prophecy, which foretold Diana killing her off. While that was a secondary motivation in the Golden Age, it became Circe's primary motivation, during the Silver Age and right up until the Crisis. I could forget about that, though.