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  1. #166
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    I liked the issue, but what I didn't like was the retrogression of the relationship between Batman and Superman. If you're going to play them off as the World's Finest then just do it, don't pad out the entire issue having them act all estranged and like children. Having Superman hesitate to contact and congratulate his friend after hearing about one of the biggest developments of his adult life just seems absurd to me. It felt so pointlessly melodramatic like a soap. Also there was a really bad coloring issue during the scene in the Batcave that made Selina look like she has grotesquely large fingernails. Catwoman already knowing that Clark was Superman felt off to me, it was just a handwave. I honestly can't imagine her knowing or caring that a Metropolis reporter named Clark Kent exists at all.

    Batman and Superman's dialogue felt way too homogenized, but that's a problem with nearly all of King's books.

    Cynical nitpicking aside, it was a fun little issue and I loved the art and am looking forward to the next installment.
    And this is your take when you liked the issue??? LOL!

  2. #167
    Amazing Member batfan08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    I liked the issue, but what I didn't like was the retrogression of the relationship between Batman and Superman. If you're going to play them off as the World's Finest then just do it, don't pad out the entire issue having them act all estranged and like children. Having Superman hesitate to contact and congratulate his friend after hearing about one of the biggest developments of his adult life just seems absurd to me. It felt so pointlessly melodramatic like a soap. Also there was a really bad coloring issue during the scene in the Batcave that made Selina look like she has grotesquely large fingernails. Catwoman already knowing that Clark was Superman felt off to me, it was just a handwave. I honestly can't imagine her knowing or caring that a Metropolis reporter named Clark Kent exists at all.

    Batman and Superman's dialogue felt way too homogenized, but that's a problem with nearly all of King's books.

    Cynical nitpicking aside, it was a fun little issue and I loved the art and am looking forward to the next installment.
    I didn’t find it to be a retrogression at all. If anything, it felt like they were revealing deep seated insecurities about their relationship that showed how much reverence they each held for the other. You have Batman, on one hand, feeling like he can never measure up to Superman because he isn’t a benevolent symbol of hope and contextualizing his being a rich kid who lost his parents against Clark being a refugee who lost his entire planet. Meanwhile, on the other, there’s Superman feeling like he’ll never be as good as Batman because he views Bruce as a human being who overcame his loss and persevered to help others out of sheer force of will, rather than because of his super powers.

    To me, King gets both characters. They’re two sides of the same coin and I really appreciate that he isn’t falling into the trap that a lot of Batman writers do, where Bruce is representative of the darker side of heroism, but, rather, that he gives people a different kind of hope, in that he is just a man who channeled his loss in a manner that allowed him to help others, as opposed to simply embracing those self-destructive tendencies in ways that may not have helped anyone.

    Between this first part of the Superfriends arc, Dream of Me, the Annual, and The Brave and The Mold, I can honestly say that King might be behind my favorite iteration of Batman in recent years, because he gets that Batman is the byproduct of some damaged kid’s emotional hang-ups and that he’s a grown man living a child’s fantasy, but he doesn’t apologize for it. He goes out of his way to illustrate that Bruce is self-aware, that Selina gets it (as evidenced by her ‘I’ll always be second to an 8-year old’s immature vow to his parents’), but he’s functional and he has the capacity to be happy, which is something we don’t often see.

    I don’t know. I tend to look at Batman and it seems like fans have this almost masochistic urge to see Bruce Wayne torn down to the point where his role as Batman is all encompassing and all consuming and it forces him to forsake everything else in life, and I get it, because people have over 78 years of content reinforcing that perception, but, to me, the reason I love King’s Batman so much is the same reason I always liked OG Barry Allen.

    When Bruce Wayne stops being so broken that Batman is the only life he’s capable of leading, it makes his continued role as Batman all the more powerful, in that he has succeeded in moving on, to an extent; he has a happy life and people who love him, yet he still continues to put his life on the line to help others. He doesn’t do it only because of a promise he made as a child, or because there’s nothing else in his life, but because he’s capable of doing so, and he believes it’s the right thing to do.

  3. #168
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batfan08 View Post
    I didn’t find it to be a retrogression at all. If anything, it felt like they were revealing deep seated insecurities about their relationship that showed how much reverence they each held for the other. You have Batman, on one hand, feeling like he can never measure up to Superman because he isn’t a benevolent symbol of hope and contextualizing his being a rich kid who lost his parents against Clark being a refugee who lost his entire planet. Meanwhile, on the other, there’s Superman feeling like he’ll never be as good as Batman because he views Bruce as a human being who overcame his loss and persevered to help others out of sheer force of will, rather than because of his super powers.

    To me, King gets both characters. They’re two sides of the same coin and I really appreciate that he isn’t falling into the trap that a lot of Batman writers do, where Bruce is representative of the darker side of heroism, but, rather, that he gives people a different kind of hope, in that he is just a man who channeled his loss in a manner that allowed him to help others, as opposed to simply embracing those self-destructive tendencies in ways that may not have helped anyone.

    Between this first part of the Superfriends arc, Dream of Me, the Annual, and The Brave and The Mold, I can honestly say that King might be behind my favorite iteration of Batman in recent years, because he gets that Batman is the byproduct of some damaged kid’s emotional hang-ups and that he’s a grown man living a child’s fantasy, but he doesn’t apologize for it. He goes out of his way to illustrate that Bruce is self-aware, that Selina gets it (as evidenced by her ‘I’ll always be second to an 8-year old’s immature vow to his parents’), but he’s functional and he has the capacity to be happy, which is something we don’t often see.

    I don’t know. I tend to look at Batman and it seems like fans have this almost masochistic urge to see Bruce Wayne torn down to the point where his role as Batman is all encompassing and all consuming and it forces him to forsake everything else in life, and I get it, because people have over 78 years of content reinforcing that perception, but, to me, the reason I love King’s Batman so much is the same reason I always liked OG Barry Allen.

    When Bruce Wayne stops being so broken that Batman is the only life he’s capable of leading, it makes his continued role as Batman all the more powerful, in that he has succeeded in moving on, to an extent; he has a happy life and people who love him, yet he still continues to put his life on the line to help others. He doesn’t do it only because of a promise he made as a child, or because there’s nothing else in his life, but because he’s capable of doing so, and he believes it’s the right thing to do.
    Well said! Well said!

  4. #169
    Amazing Member Omniscient1's Avatar
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    Well interesting posts here. #36 just arrived in The Grim North and its a hoot. I have just rececently given up on Detective Comics after many years and rebirths (Etc), there is only so much of a morose, unlikable, Batman-as-Jerk character I could stand. The 'Batman' comic has been a breath of fresh air. I hope it doesn't self -destruct. I'm just waiting for Batman/Bruce/Alfred/whoever to 'wake up' and its all been a dream.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by batfan08 View Post
    I didn’t find it to be a retrogression at all. If anything, it felt like they were revealing deep seated insecurities about their relationship that showed how much reverence they each held for the other. You have Batman, on one hand, feeling like he can never measure up to Superman because he isn’t a benevolent symbol of hope and contextualizing his being a rich kid who lost his parents against Clark being a refugee who lost his entire planet. Meanwhile, on the other, there’s Superman feeling like he’ll never be as good as Batman because he views Bruce as a human being who overcame his loss and persevered to help others out of sheer force of will, rather than because of his super powers.
    This point of view necessitates a self-absorption and inward concern that neither of these characters possess. You're saying that these guys who have spent decades fighting crime together, saved each other's lives dozens of times, who have pretty much bared their souls to each other many times over, who know each other like the back of their hands, would refuse to talk to each other because of some newfound insecurities? And why? Because Bruce finally decided to progress his life in a way that doesn't necessarily involve Batman? That's a load of hogwash and the Superman I know would've blazed right to the Batcave as soon as he heard. This "boo hoo I'm not as good as him" excuse for avoiding each other is the height of contrivance and felt very out-of-character for both parties. This isn't the New 52 anymore.

  6. #171
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    This point of view necessitates a self-absorption and inward concern that neither of these characters possess. You're saying that these guys who have spent decades fighting crime together, saved each other's lives dozens of times, who have pretty much bared their souls to each other many times over, who know each other like the back of their hands, would refuse to talk to each other because of some newfound insecurities? And why? Because Bruce finally decided to progress his life in a way that doesn't necessarily involve Batman? That's a load of hogwash and the Superman I know would've blazed right to the Batcave as soon as he heard. This "boo hoo I'm not as good as him" excuse for avoiding each other is the height of contrivance and felt very out-of-character for both parties. This isn't the New 52 anymore.
    I agree with this too. But the question is, when would he had blazed off to the Batcave? Because Superman knew when Supes was there in the desert with Dick and Damian. And he didn't stay to find out what happened, he blazed off to take care of some crisis.

    So would he had blazed off to the Batcave as soon as Bats came back? Well we don't know how long Bruce has been back but apparently Supes didn't blazed into the Batcave as soon as Batman came back to Gotham. He sat there waiting on a call from his friend to tell him news he already knew. And when he didn't get that call, he STILL didn't blaze into the Batcave to demand why.

    So unless you expected all of that to happen, then what's going on is highly possible.

    And no shade, I just liked using that word blazed

  7. #172
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    This isn't the New 52 anymore.
    Thank goodness for that

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by WontonGirl View Post
    I agree with this too. But the question is, when would he had blazed off to the Batcave? Because Superman knew when Supes was there in the desert with Dick and Damian. And he didn't stay to find out what happened, he blazed off to take care of some crisis.

    So would he had blazed off to the Batcave as soon as Bats came back? Well we don't know how long Bruce has been back but apparently Supes didn't blazed into the Batcave as soon as Batman came back to Gotham. He sat there waiting on a call from his friend to tell him news he already knew. And when he didn't get that call, he STILL didn't blaze into the Batcave to demand why.

    So unless you expected all of that to happen, then what's going on is highly possible.

    And no shade, I just liked using that word blazed
    Well we don't know when Superman found out. I used the barging into the cave example because that's historically the kinda thing Supes does when he wants to talk to Bruce. But regardless, Superman knows that Batman simply isn't the kind of person to call and spread the good news. Bruce is known for his severe antisocial tendencies, something Clark is very much aware and critical of. Perhaps framing the issue around that idea would've sat better with me than Supes moping and avoiding confrontation because he believes he isn't worthy or some other nonsense.

  9. #174
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    Well we don't know when Superman found out. I used the barging into the cave example because that's historically the kinda thing Supes does when he wants to talk to Bruce. But regardless, Superman knows that Batman simply isn't the kind of person to call and spread the good news. Bruce is known for his severe antisocial tendencies, something Clark is very much aware and critical of. Perhaps framing the issue around that idea would've sat better with me than Supes moping and avoiding confrontation because he believes he isn't worthy or some other nonsense.
    But you just proved Superman's reasoning for feeling that way. Clark was probably thinking about the same things you listed. After all this time, after all the talks and battles and he knows me and I know him and he STILL hasn't told me about his engagement? Well, maybe we aren't really friends after all.

    And that is completely normal for Clark to feel that way. I have been there with people like that. You go through stuff, you hang out and you think you are really close. And then big things happen in their lives or they get married and you are not told about them and you think to yourself, well geez, I thought we were really close.

    Had King wrote or devoted some panels to talking about Bats antisocial tendencies and Clark bringing that up in the issue, then some people would had said "ah, King is not making them close and these guys are close". LOL! Sorry you didn't like the issue. Perhaps the next one might be better for you. It's Date Night

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by WontonGirl View Post
    But you just proved Superman's reasoning for feeling that way. Clark was probably thinking about the same things you listed. After all this time, after all the talks and battles and he knows me and I know him and he STILL hasn't told me about his engagement? Well, maybe we aren't really friends after all.
    I literally just told you that Clark already knows there isn't a world where Bruce happily rings him up and asks him to be his best man. That's not the kinda person Bruce is, Clark knows that, and wouldn't be having some kind of relationship-questioning crisis over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by WontonGirl View Post
    And that is completely normal for Clark to feel that way. I have been there with people like that. You go through stuff, you hang out and you think you are really close. And then big things happen in their lives or they get married and you are not told about them and you think to yourself, well geez, I thought we were really close.
    We could sit here and compare our lives to Superman and Batman all day, but at no point would it ever really start to become relevant. These characters live in a setting and through situations that we have zero frame of reference for in reality. I mean have you ever trusted and confided in someone so much that you personally handed them the only weapon in the world that can conceivably kill you? How many people in your life do you have that you feel 100% confident in to call on in desperate times to protect your closest friends and family? That's a kind of trust and understanding that took many years to build. We saw it happen. And what, they re-evaluate that just because Batman is getting married? Sorry but no, I don't buy it for one second.

    Quote Originally Posted by WontonGirl View Post
    Had King wrote or devoted some panels to talking about Bats antisocial tendencies and Clark bringing that up in the issue, then some people would had said "ah, King is not making them close and these guys are close". LOL! Sorry you didn't like the issue. Perhaps the next one might be better for you. It's Date Night
    I feel like that's needlessly abductive reasoning. If he just wrote the characters as they've been historically built there would be no valid complaints.

  11. #176
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    I literally just told you that Clark already knows there isn't a world where Bruce happily rings him up and asks him to be his best man. That's not the kinda person Bruce is, Clark knows that, and wouldn't be having some kind of relationship-questioning crisis over it.



    We could sit here and compare our lives to Superman and Batman all day, but at no point would it ever really start to become relevant. These characters live in a setting and through situations that we have zero frame of reference for in reality. I mean have you ever trusted and confided in someone so much that you personally handed them the only weapon in the world that can conceivably kill you? How many people in your life do you have that you feel 100% confident in to call on in desperate times to protect your closest friends and family? That's a kind of trust and understanding that took many years to build. We saw it happen. And what, they re-evaluate that just because Batman is getting married? Sorry but no, I don't buy it for one second.



    I feel like that's needlessly abductive reasoning. If he just wrote the characters as they've been historically built there would be no valid complaints.
    Okay. I understand.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Two things (there's more - but this off the top of my head) I'm interested in:

    Catwoman's reaction to Babara's secret I.D. - She's going to find out Commissioner Gordon's daughter has been on the down low with him all these years and fighting her and be like, "WTH Babs?"

    Joker's reaction to Bats and Cats becoming official - He's not going to like another "power couple" running the rooftops of Gotham. I wonder if it could make him rekindle things with Harley again, just because of his obsession with outdoing the Bat. (I know this might not be feasible with Harley off doing her own thing.)

    Just like the other convos that need to happy with Bruce's family and friends, I'm looking forward to Selina's conversations with the crime underworld. (Especially the Joker. They're two of the most important to the Batman mythos - so it needs to happen.)

  13. #178
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    A marriage is one of the most important things to go through. If you claim to be my best friend/brother and I hear about something like this from someone else other than you, I've got some questioning to do.

  14. #179
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross61 View Post
    A marriage is one of the most important things to go through. If you claim to be my best friend/brother and I hear about something like this from someone else other than you, I've got some questioning to do.
    And that's exactly why Clark was like, "okay then, he just showed me that we are not the friends I thought we were". It happens everyday. And that was my point.

    Batman or Bruce is going to have to learn that he has to be open with people in a way that let's them know they are special and close to him. And not necessarily related to the mission. Gordon is NOT his best friend and he knew it.

  15. #180
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    Two things (there's more - but this off the top of my head) I'm interested in:

    Catwoman's reaction to Babara's secret I.D. - She's going to find out Commissioner Gordon's daughter has been on the down low with him all these years and fighting her and be like, "WTH Babs?"

    Joker's reaction to Bats and Cats becoming official - He's not going to like another "power couple" running the rooftops of Gotham. I wonder if it could make him rekindle things with Harley again, just because of his obsession with outdoing the Bat. (I know this might not be feasible with Harley off doing her own thing.)

    Just like the other convos that need to happy with Bruce's family and friends, I'm looking forward to Selina's conversations with the crime underworld. (Especially the Joker. They're two of the most important to the Batman mythos - so it needs to happen.)
    The crime world is not going to know that Batman and Catwoman is "official". They already know that those two tend to like each other. And Selina is not going to have a conversation with the criminal underworld either. The criminals are going to think either one or two things:

    That Selina ended up marrying billionaire Bruce Wayne. People know they have dated before.

    And a couple of smarter ones will put two and two together.

    But that's on King to figure that whole thing out and we are just going to have to wait and see how he does it.

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