Wonder Woman villain: how would you fix him/her: Veronica Cale

[Mel Dyer]

Mel's just thinking through ideas?

He's brought up and tossed out several throughout this discussion.

Yes...that. Thank you, Scott.

I guess I could live with Veronica Cale, as is - no powers, transformation, etc - but, I need to see her get her hands dirty with her work, once in a while. At some point, I want to see her grab Wonder Woman by her superior Amazon hair and beat the living hell out of her. I don't care, if she uses the Angler or magic weapons - for my money, Cale's got to go apocalyptic on Diana, very soon, ..or go home! If Ronnie can't be bothered with that kind of brutality and the risk taken to go H2H with Wonder Woman, she's a whiny little punk...

And not worthy of being Diana's archnemesis.

It also makes Diana look comparatively bad worrying about her. We must ask, "Is this the best Wonder Woman can do for an archenemy?"

[Agent Z]

Yes...that. Thank you, Scott.

I guess I could live with Veronica Cale, as is - no powers, transformation, etc - but, I need to see her get her hands dirty with her work, once in a while. At some point, I want to see her grab Wonder Woman by her superior Amazon hair and beat the living hell out of her. I don't care, if she uses the Angler or magic weapons - for my money, Cale's got to go apocalyptic on Diana, very soon, ..or go home! If Ronnie can't be bothered with that kind of brutality and the risk taken to go H2H with Wonder Woman, she's a whiny little punk...

And not worthy of being Diana's archnemesis.

It also makes Diana look comparatively bad worrying about her. We must ask, "Is this the best Wonder Woman can do for an archenemy?"

No one is asking for her to be Diana's archnemesis.

[millernumber1]

Why are people here always asking how to fix what isn't broken?

Agreed. I don't get what's broken about her.

[The Dying Detective]

Agreed. I don't get what's broken about her.

Veronica Cale needs to stand out more and not be some sort of female Luthor that's her only problem.

[Mel Dyer]

Veronica Cale needs to stand out more and not be some sort of female Luthor that's her only problem.

Why a female Luthor, I wonder? I think it was Greg Rucka, who created Veronica Cale, as Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis and basically a she-Luthor. He's said that outright, in several interviews.

[The Dying Detective]

Why a female Luthor, I wonder? I think it was Greg Rucka, who created Veronica Cale, as Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis and basically a she-Luthor. He's said that outright, in several interviews.

Yeah and now it's an uphill climb to try and figure out how to make her distinct from her inspiration which Rucka himself is not able to completely even by changing her motive to something more sympathetic because it does not make her much of a villain. Her old goal was to prove Diana is a hypocrite but honestly I would just replace her with Fullmetal Alchemist Solf J. Kimblee a psychopath who cuts through ideals very well because he is an embodiment the very darkness of humanity.

[millernumber1]

Veronica Cale needs to stand out more and not be some sort of female Luthor that's her only problem.

Eh. As someone who doesn't really care about Lex Luthor, I don't mind that she's the same type of villain.

[The Dying Detective]

Eh. As someone who doesn't really care about Lex Luthor, I don't mind that she's the same type of villain.

Yeah but Luthor pretty much cornered the market on being the evil businessman with good publicity that he's become the very definition of the idea so it can lead to Cale being considered a poor man's Lex Luthor and if Cale and Luthor met that would something he would call her come to think of it.

[ed2962]

I actually like the idea of Cale as WW's Luthor. It's easy to come up with villains you can just punch out. I think it's more challenging to have villains that out maneuver the hero with her brains. And while there's plenty of femme fatales out there, I think we could use a few more criminal masterminds.

[OBrianTallent]

I dont think Veronica needs to be fixed as much as have her role redefined. I dont want to have her gain powers other than her own resourcefulness and I truly dont mind other people thinking of her as Diana's Lex Luthor, only if the creators see her that way...only then does it limit the character's growth. I like the idea of Cale gathering villains together and pitting them against Diana, I dont think she needs to directly challenge Diana as I think the character might actually see herself as better than Wonder Woman, better than this self inflated so called princess who's people stole her daughter. I see her as the cunning woman behind the curtain. Everyone looks at Luthor and knows he is evil, I dont think people would look at Veronica Cale that way. They might think she's a heartless bitch, but not evil per se and it's that which gets her what she wants.

[Mel Dyer]

While I feel like I could write a (another) dissertation on my problems with Cale being Wonder Woman's most natural and iconic foe, so many of you are making that argument, so much more thoroughly, than I can ..or already have. She's just so bloody PLAIN...I'll leave it at that!

Wonder Woman lives in this marvelously magical, mythical, futuristic, quirky, mismatched world - of Amazons and invisible jets and freaking KANGAS! Then, here comes this painfully generic, TV-movie-of-the-week, sinister industrialist...and she's Wonder Woman's arch-enemy? I just don't get that...no, no, no! I can't.

She's just too damned plain.

Can some writer let Cale narratively cannibalize Anglette, who's even more painfully generic and passé, than she already is, ..giving Ronnie a new toy to bedevil Wonder Woman with? By cannibalization, I'm talking about taking superficial elements from Anglette or some similarly awful super-villain and incorporating them into Cale's act, so to speak, ..to enhance it, a bit. That wouldn't change who she was, ..as much as giving her more options for how she expressed her villainous ambitions. That's the kind of fix, I'm talking about. Still want to see her beat the hell out of Wonder Woman, too, and, for my money, ..that needs to happen much sooner, than later.

Thanks, Mizuno...great topic for discussion. Sorry, if I was driven to repeat previously posted ideas for how to make Cale less plain.

[Agent Z]

While I feel like I could write a (another) dissertation on my problems with Cale being Wonder Woman's most natural and iconic foe, so many of you are making that argument, so much more thoroughly, than I can ..or already have. She's just so bloody PLAIN...I'll leave it at that!

Wonder Woman lives in this marvelously magical, mythical, futuristic, quirky, mismatched world - of Amazons and invisible jets and freaking KANGAS! Then, here comes this painfully generic, TV-movie-of-the-week, sinister industrialist...and she's Wonder Woman's arch-enemy? I just don't get that...no, no, no! I can't.

She's just too damned plain.

Can some writer let Cale narratively cannibalize Anglette, who's even more painfully generic and passé, than she already is, ..giving Ronnie a new toy to bedevil Wonder Woman with? By cannibalization, I'm talking about taking superficial elements from Anglette or some similarly awful super-villain and incorporating them into Cale's act, so to speak, ..to enhance it, a bit. That wouldn't change who she was, ..as much as giving her more options for how she expressed her villainous ambitions. That's the kind of fix, I'm talking about. Still want to see her beat the hell out of Wonder Woman, too, and, for my money, ..that needs to happen much sooner, than later.

Thanks, Mizuno...great topic for discussion. Sorry, if I was driven to repeat previously posted ideas for how to make Cale less plain.

Again, who is saying she is Diana's most iconic foe? No one is under that impression but you?

I guess we should just get rid of Etta, Steve, the Kapatelis and just about any normal human in the WW franchise then.

[Koriand'r]

While I feel like I could write a (another) dissertation on my problems with Cale being Wonder Woman's most natural and iconic foe, so many of you are making that argument, so much more thoroughly, than I can ..or already have. She's just so bloody PLAIN...I'll leave it at that!

Wonder Woman lives in this marvelously magical, mythical, futuristic, quirky, mismatched world - of Amazons and invisible jets and freaking KANGAS! Then, here comes this painfully generic, TV-movie-of-the-week, sinister industrialist...and she's Wonder Woman's arch-enemy? I just don't get that...no, no, no! I can't.

She's just too damned plain.

Oh about a 100 years ago there was a night time soap opera that spun off of Dallas called Knot's Landing. On it there was a beautiful and ruthless business woman named Abby Ewing, she was cold as ice and her heart only melted for her children. She started on the show as a bit player but over several seasons she became the series' main star and antagonist. Her characterization was very much like that of Emma Frost or Veronica Cale and she wasn't plain at all.

Veronica Cale doesn't need super powers to be interesting or a credible threat to Wonder Woman. Less is often more.

[WonderScott]

Oh about a 100 years ago there was a night time soap opera that spun off of Dallas called Knot's Landing. On it there was a beautiful and ruthless business woman named Abby Ewing, she was cold as ice and her heart only melted for her children. She started on the show as a bit player but over several seasons she became the series' main star and antagonist. Her characterization was very much like that of Emma Frost or Veronica Cale and she wasn't plain at all.

Veronica Cale doesn't need super powers to be interesting or a credible threat to Wonder Woman. Less is often more.

:: bows to you for bringing Abby Ewing into the conversation::

[Mel Dyer]

Greg Rucka has called Veronica Cale, Wonder Woman's 'greatest foe' on his website, folks. That's not me talking.

He said that he fashioned Cale as a "Lex Luthor for Diana", in a Newsarama interview, back in [I think...] the mid 2Ks, ..but, I can't find the interview. In context (very important, context), that's about as close to calling her Diana's natural and iconic foe, her go-to supervillain, as he's ever been. Anyway, his intentions on Cale's role in the WW narrative have been very clear, for the better of a decade.

Grumble I may on the superficial stuff, ..I think Rucka accomplished that much.