Superman#36 Discussion and Spoilers

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You gotta check out Bug! if you haven't already. Man I would be interested to see the Allreds float over for a guest spot.

Oh yeah, actually I have been reading it. And you’re right, it is a great representation of the New Gods. I just forgot.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If you've been missing out out on platitudes of American exceptionalism and the whitewashing of history since 'Road Trip', this issue has you covered. Their reference to Superman #20 with Lois is not the only poor choice Tomasi & Gleason double down on.

I don’t think it’s necessarily American exceptionalism when Clark doesn’t even say the word “America” or even anything suggesting he believes he’s from “the greatest place ever.” He’s mostly just talking about his family, to an alien audience who has no idea what America is. Plus, I mean, if we want to get technical, extolling American virtues and principles by itself in no way means endorsing the heinous acts of our country’s past. All civilizations and countries have done some…pretty messed up stuff, especially the West.

[Sacred Knight]

While this arc fell flat its still better than anything Pak and Kuder ever did.

The family amusement park issue is the only thing that's ever come close to touching anything Pak and Kuder ever did, much less this turd of an arc.

Tomasi and Gleeson said they'd like to do 100 issues, same as King on Batman

What they'd like to do and what they get to do is hopefully two very different things. Superman and Lois have a guest appearance in Batman this month that kills anything this title has done with the two characters in nearly a year if not over a year. That's unacceptable. Good art alone can only carry a book so far.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The family amusement park issue is the only thing that's ever come close to touching anything Pak and Kuder ever did, much less this turd of an arc.

Let’s not forget that Pak and Kuder (while definitely good in some parts) were still dragged into such “gems” as Doomed and Truth. Literally anything that Tomasi and Gleason have done on this run is head and shoulders above anything from those arcs. Not to mention that the tail end of the Pak/Kuder run was pretty bad. I hated that whole shadow-monster arc.

What they'd like to do and what they get to do is hopefully two very different things. Superman and Lois have a guest appearance in Batman this month that kills anything this title has done with the two characters in nearly a year if not over a year. That's unacceptable. Good art alone can only carry a book so far.

I haven’t read the Batman issue, but that’s kind of a subjective thing. I particularly enjoyed this past issue partly because Lois is kind of a badass and the chemistry between Lois and Clark was on point.

[Miles To Go]

I liked the story overall too. There seems to be a concerted bandwagon campaign to try and force the direction to change here, and it's usually from people who have never taken to the Super-Family concept, and want only their needs catered to at the expense of every fan who currently enjoys the dynamic.

[Sacred Knight]

Trying to minimize criticism as something petty is, in of itself, petty. The narrative you're trying to create that its just because of a dislike of a general direction is also false. Look no further than a respected member like Superlad, who loves the family concept, and has had a problem with this title for even longer than I have. The problems with this arc had nothing to do with a family dynamic anyway. The problem has to do with a now-routine whiffing on pacing, stakes, and satisfactory conclusions to stories. Not everything has to be agenda-driven just because its an almighty Rebirth title that's receiving the criticism.

[Miles To Go]

Trying to minimize criticism as something petty is, in of itself, petty.

The way you guys constantly vilify Tomasi and Gleeson in your criticisms is even pettier

And yes, there ARE people in here that have criticized the book for things like Lois handling the Furies and demanding the family be booted out of the comic. I suggest you go back and re-read the thread

[Sacred Knight]

There's a difference between criticizing work and "vilifying". The former is all this is. At least, I would challenge you to find anyone of any repute here saying anything outright personally insulting or outside of a purely a constructive critical lens at the two creators. There's no vilifying going on, you just don't like that the work is being criticized. Which is fine but you're turning it into something its not to dismiss it.

And yes, there ARE people in here that have criticized the book for things like Lois handling the Furies and demanding the family be booted out of the comic. I suggest you go back and re-read the thread, or would you rather I start quoting them here and save you the bother?

Lois handling the Furies WAS dumb. That's not vilifying, that's a criticism of a story beat. Wanting the family booted out of the comic? An exaggerated wish, but still nothing vilifying about that. Just someone's opinion. Not mine, but someone's. These are just opinions you don't agree with. It happens.

[Miles To Go]

There's a difference between criticizing work and "vilifying". You're too sensitive if you're taking offensive to criticisms of simply the work. And that's all this is. There's no vilifying going on, you just don't like that the work is being criticized. Which is fine but you're turning it into something its not to dismiss it.

If you want to keep it to critiquing the work, then do so, but stop dragging Tomasi and Gleeson's names through the mud like some have in here due to their approach to politics. I say they'd like to stay on the book for 100 issues, and you're all "that's what they want, but it might not be what they get to do if the criticism keeps up", the book is selling modestly well, I wouldn't worry about the outcry of a vocal minority constantly complaining about the book costing either of them their dream run.

[Sacred Knight]

I have been keeping it to critiquing their work, so with all due respect I don't need any reminders from you to keep it there. I've taken no personal shots at any time nor will. In regards to politics, I haven't partaken in that aspect of the criticism, personally, outside of just noting that a slant is indeed present. But even so, for those that do have a problem in that arena, why is it off limits? Why are you the arbiter of what can be delved into and discussed in regards to the writing? Discussing political slants in works does not automatically equate to dragging someone's name through the mud.

Also I never said they might not get 100 issues if the criticism keeps up. I can't tell the future. I said I HOPE they don't get what they want in 100 issues. I have just as much a right to voice that as you do hoping that they do. If the book continues to sell well and they stay on, bully for them, I just stay gone till a later date, that's all there is to it. But I won't quit hoping.

And if you're not worried about a "vocal minority", why do you keep flipping out when the book is criticized? Why is it such a big deal to you that you have to go out of your way to try and demean and invalidate critical analysis of any kind? I get defending a critique. That's what this place is all about. But there always the extra touch of "villfying" or "concerted bandwagon campaign" or all these other crap adjectives designed simply to invalidate as opposed to just countering.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I mean, if anyone is worried about the critical consensus surrounding this run, let’s just, well, ask the critics: https://comicbookroundup.com/comic-b...rman-(2016)/36

There seems to be a lot of positive buzz still so I doubt that we have to worry about Tomasi and Gleason being forced off anytime soon.

[Sacred Knight]

And that's fine. If the book is doing well the book is doing well. I'll just have to wait to return full-time. I can deal with that, not everyone gets what they want all the time. I can vocalize the desire, though, and talk about what I don't like when I see it. Never been anything wrong with that, nothing automatically vilifying like that. Its not some sort of dark, devious, and malicious agenda the likes of hoping to deprive two poor creators of their livelihood to dare not like this book and vocalize not liking the book. The exaggeration in that regard is out-of-whack.

[DragonPiece]

I mean, if anyone is worried about the critical consensus surrounding this run, let’s just, well, ask the critics: https://comicbookroundup.com/comic-b...rman-(2016)/36

There seems to be a lot of positive buzz still so I doubt that we have to worry about Tomasi and Gleason being forced off anytime soon.

I don't think anyone is expecting them to be kicked off because of sales or reviews, they are just stating their own opinion of the team.

Personally, I agree with both sides. Issue wasn't as terrible as some are describing, but I also hate that the story feels so rushed and that Lex's turn to evil randomly happens in this book. I would rather have Geoff Johns tell the story in doomsday clock or Dan Jurgens wrap up the story in Action. I was still hoping we would see more of the super team Superman had going with lex as well.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't think anyone is expecting them to be kicked off because of sales or reviews, they are just stating their own opinion of the team.

Personally, I agree with both sides. Issue wasn't as terrible as some are describing, but I also hate that the story feels so rushed and that Lex's turn to evil randomly happens in this book. I would rather have Geoff Johns tell the story in doomsday clock or Dan Jurgens wrap up the story in Action. I was still hoping we would see more of the super team Superman had going with lex as well.

I mean, its not that random for Lex's turn to happen here. This is the main Superman book after all. Plus, we don't necessarily know that he's evil as in gone back completely to his old ways evil (though I foresee that at some point). We just know that he's had a falling out with Superman. He might try to be a hero still, but not Superman's partner. His full turn back to evil may be still in Doomsday Clock. But, I do get the complaint. Though, I'm pretty sure Lex, whether starting off in Doomsday Clock as Superman's enemy or becoming such in it, is still going to factor heavily into the event.

[Barbatos666]

The family amusement park issue is the only thing that's ever come close to touching anything Pak and Kuder ever did, much less this turd of an arc.


What they'd like to do and what they get to do is hopefully two very different things. Superman and Lois have a guest appearance in Batman this month that kills anything this title has done with the two characters in nearly a year if not over a year. That's unacceptable. Good art alone can only carry a book so far.

I honestly cant even remember what Pak did outside of the crossovers which imo were pretty bad. I recall a blue creature that no one will ever use, a soldier guy that no one used and a tentacle monster claiming to be Ultrahumanite that has already been reversed. Be objective here, the current run wipes the floor with that book.

There are Batman fans who feel King is an awful Batman writer. Even the CBR poll here showed polarizing results. A guest appearence doesn't mean anything. I've seen Batfans saying White Knight Batman is better than anything King writes.