Superman#36 Discussion and Spoilers

[Kuwagaton]

Be objective here, the current run wipes the floor with that book.

You say objective and follow up with another exaggerated opinion. "A little ____ is better than all _____" is never a very even tempered assessment.

The current teams are really scrutinized on this board like I don't often see outside of cbr, but it is worth noting that they are as valid as any other impression that the book makes. After a year and a half I can understand calling for a new writer, we all do that when it's simply what we want. We want to enjoy these books. I remember begging for Jeff Parker, but he went to Aquaman at a point where I struggled with these main titles. So now a year of stilted story endings have people calling for other writers.

[Miles To Go]

You say objective and follow up with another exaggerated opinion. "A little ____ is better than all _____" is never a very even tempered assessment.

The current teams are really scrutinized on this board like I don't often see outside of cbr, but it is worth noting that they are as valid as any other impression that the book makes. After a year and a half I can understand calling for a new writer, we all do that when it's simply what we want. We want to enjoy these books.

Some of us ARE enjoying the book as it is though, and trying to find spirited conversation about it's positives grows increasingly more difficult when the same people chime in constantly nagging about the cons and slandering the creative teams because they put their two cents into the narrative.

I've been accused of being too sensitive to the criticism of the book, but I'd argue the critics are even more sensitive given their attitude towards the writers not giving them what they want.

Noone is saying criticism should be outlawed, that is never going to happen and is vital for improving a product, I do often find myself saying a story is too quick or a development needs time to breath, but despite my own nags, I look for what I enjoy in the book...the family dynamic, the plot development with Lex, the action, the warmth between Clark and Lois. The coolness of Jon, that's all in this issue and for that I'm grateful for Tomasi and Gleeson playing to their strengths.

Comics are made by human beings.

[Kuwagaton]

Oh yeah, I'm with you there. I don't think there's a possibility of anything close to perfect, so I can't really say the rough edges deter me as a reader. To me it's apparent that moving toward company character missions through biweekly writing with rotating artists has been remarkably difficult, even with small breaks. Especially when I see all the praise Tomasi gets for his Supersons monthly.

I have a blast when it comes to the Kents knocking about the universe. And I think other characters getting the action while the action ace instead settles the scene with his words is one of my favorite things. Can he win a fight ? The answer is yes, so let's see something else sometimes you know? I read this book for Superman and that's satisfying, but seeing Lois and Jon fend for themselves is great. Honestly it was a pretty good use of Superman having a decades old tie to fourth world. Apokolips looks weak without Darkseid? Lol, you don't say. Lex snapping was abrupt, but we all knew it was coming anyway and at least the imagery was strong.

[DragonPiece]

I mean, its not that random for Lex's turn to happen here. This is the main Superman book after all. Plus, we don't necessarily know that he's evil as in gone back completely to his old ways evil (though I foresee that at some point). We just know that he's had a falling out with Superman. He might try to be a hero still, but not Superman's partner. His full turn back to evil may be still in Doomsday Clock. But, I do get the complaint. Though, I'm pretty sure Lex, whether starting off in Doomsday Clock as Superman's enemy or becoming such in it, is still going to factor heavily into the event.

Does that even matter? Important plot points happen in both Action and Superman. heck, I'd say Action has done more to move the Superman story along during the Rebirth than the Superman book has done.

[Sacred Knight]

I honestly cant even remember what Pak did outside of the crossovers which imo were pretty bad. I recall a blue creature that no one will ever use, a soldier guy that no one used and a tentacle monster claiming to be Ultrahumanite that has already been reversed. Be objective here, the current run wipes the floor with that book.

If you can't remember that's fine. I can. That a run was forgettable to you does not mean that an opposing opinion is not based on any objectivity.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Does that even matter? Important plot points happen in both Action and Superman. heck, I'd say Action has done more to move the Superman story along during the Rebirth than the Superman book has done.

I’d say that it does because, as you said, important plot points happen in the main Superman books all the time. So it’s not out of place for an important development to the DCU to happen here. Plus, again, Lex going evil again or at least his falling out with Superman probably will factor heavily into Doomsday Clock. So, in that way, this book is doing it’s part to move the Rebirth plot along.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I honestly cant even remember what Pak did outside of the crossovers which imo were pretty bad. I recall a blue creature that no one will ever use, a soldier guy that no one used and a tentacle monster claiming to be Ultrahumanite that has already been reversed. Be objective here, the current run wipes the floor with that book.

There are Batman fans who feel King is an awful Batman writer. Even the CBR poll here showed polarizing results. A guest appearence doesn't mean anything. I've seen Batfans saying White Knight Batman is better than anything King writes.

Agreed. Pak had a pretty decent run. There were some arcs that I could consider great, but there were also some I considered real stinkers. Plus, in typical New 52 fashion, he was dragged into pretty much every bad DC crossover you could think of. Now, a lot of that isn’t Pak’s Fault, but IMO, the current run is much better.

[Sacred Knight]

Its to the point now where there might actually be potential benefit to doing a crossover arc with this book. Its always been about moderation in that field, and its been avoided enough that doing one now wouldn't be regarded as too much. Their standalone supposedly high stake arcs have consistently whimpered out on their own anyway. Not to mention the frequent boring fillers are just as annoying as the once upon a time frequent crossover trend.

Either that or stick to more lighthearted family dynamic stories with this book all the time since they can't structure big arcs anymore.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Its to the point now where there might actually be potential benefit to doing a crossover arc with this book. Its always been about moderation in that field, and its been avoided enough that doing one now wouldn't be regarded as too much. Their standalone supposedly high stake arcs have whimpered out on their own. Not to mention the frequent boring fillers are just as annoying as the once upon a time frequent crossover trend.

Again, that would be a subjective opinion. To many, Imperius Lex was actually a good story. And, while Action has gotten better, it’s still been hampered by some of the problems that’s plagued it like stilted dialogue and a soap-opera like approach to stakes. And I say that as someone who actually quite enjoys Action, including it’s initial arcs (especially the Doomsday arc)

[Sacred Knight]

Of course its an objective opinion. I didn't imply anything otherwise.

And yes, Jurgens' problem has always been dated dialogue. But he still knows how to craft an epic arc. He knows pacing, he knows planting the seeds for the next story within the existing one, and he knows maximizing a setting. He's always been great at that and why he can tell big stories in a way that this team can't. I've been more critical of Jurgens than anyone ever since he was announced, but he can do those things. For example, would a Jurgens Apokolips story been perfect? Probably not. But it would have felt a hell of a lot bigger than this. And when you use concepts like Apokolips, or a creepy town that's actually one big alien spaceship, you gotta be able to make it feel big. Tomasi and Gleason haven't succeeded in that arena since the initial Eradicator story. Their strengths have lain mostly in standalone, slice of life tales.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Of course its an objective opinion. I didn't imply anything otherwise.

And yes, Jurgens' problem has always been dated dialogue. But he still knows how to craft an epic arc. He knows pacing, he knows planting the seeds for the next story within the existing one, and he knows maximizing a setting. He's always been great at that and why he can tell big stories in a way that this team can't. I've been more critical of Jurgens than anyone ever since he was announced, but he can do those things. For example, would a Jurgens Apokolips story been perfect? Probably not. But it would have felt a hell of a lot bigger than this. And when you use concepts like Apokolips, or a creepy town that's actually one big alien spaceship, you gotta be able to make it feel big. Tomasi and Gleason haven't succeeded in that arena since the initial Eradicator story. Their strengths have lain mostly in standalone, slice of life tales.

Objective means factually correct, SK. Subjective is the one you’re thinking of.

Also, did we read the same Oz Effect arc? Cuz I thought that one fell incredibly flat and ended in kind of a cliché way. And again, I felt that the Black Dawn and Imperius Lex arcs felt plenty big.

[Sacred Knight]

I was speaking of objectivity in terms of being at least fair and reasonable.

And yeah, we read the same story, the ending of Oz Effect did fall flat. This is a general reputation I'm talking about, doesn't mean he hasn't missed the mark there before. Indeed, Oz Effect suffered from similar problems that this title suffers from regularly.

[Kuwagaton]

Of course its an objective opinion. I didn't imply anything otherwise.

And yes, Jurgens' problem has always been dated dialogue. But he still knows how to craft an epic arc. He knows pacing, he knows planting the seeds for the next story within the existing one, and he knows maximizing a setting. He's always been great at that and why he can tell big stories in a way that this team can't. I've been more critical of Jurgens than anyone ever since he was announced, but he can do those things. For example, would a Jurgens Apokolips story been perfect? Probably not. But it would have felt a hell of a lot bigger than this. And when you use concepts like Apokolips, or a creepy town that's actually one big alien spaceship, you gotta be able to make it feel big. Tomasi and Gleason haven't succeeded in that arena since the initial Eradicator story. Their strengths have lain mostly in standalone, slice of life tales.

Huh. I would say Jurgens was actually best at humorous dialogue in addition to good issue pace, outside of his art. I don't think we've had any of those strengths on full display for the last year. Tomasi and Gleason have been alright along the sames general lines although they don't have a decade to their credit. I just wish it looked like they were improving on the problems of previous storylines.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I was speaking of objectivity in terms of being at least fair and reasonable.

That's still not what that means. Objective means without any ounce of personal bias and straight up factual, which is almost impossible when talking about comics.

And yeah, we read the same story, the ending of Oz Effect did fall flat. This is a general reputation I'm talking about, doesn't mean he hasn't missed the mark there before. Indeed, Oz Effect suffered from similar problems that this title suffers from regularly.

I'd say the Oz Effect felt like forced "big stakes." I wouldn't want things like that in this run.

[Frontier]

I didn't get the sense that Lex was turning evil again straight away at the end, even if that was a very sinister look from him, just that he's become disillusioned from Superman and is on his way back to being Lex Luthor we all know and (love to) loathe.