Wonder Woman (Mid-Movie) vs Captain America (MCU)

[Captain Morgan]

Here's the thing. Let's say she isn't bullet timing consistently because she hasn't gotten the hang of her powers yet. She's still displaying a combination of skill and speed where she's parrying bullets fired at her back with tiny little bracelets, as opposed to just relying on her big old shield. Even calling that just aim blocking, it's still aim blocking loads better than anything movie Cap has done. Cap doesn't even have particularly good aim dodging that I can recall, and largely uses his shield (much bigger than the bracelets, or even Diana's shield) or taking people out from cover or otherwise preventing them from pulling the trigger.

Diana is jumping into the middle of swarms of gunman who are actively firing on her from all directions. She's clearly just better.

Couple that with being stronger? This isn't even a fight.

[Lord Falcon]

The context of why she can do it or not is irrelevant. Feats are feats and she has multiple bullet timing feats.

Context is always relevant, and I'm saying that saying that somebody is a bullet timer because they're shown to block bullets at will seems really weird when they're clearly not moving fast enough to block actual bullets at will. Jedi don't automatically get bullet timer status for precisely this reason.

[Lord Falcon]

Here's the thing. Let's say she isn't bullet timing consistently because she hasn't gotten the hang of her powers yet. She's still displaying a combination of skill and speed where she's parrying bullets fired at her back with tiny little bracelets, as opposed to just relying on her big old shield. Even calling that just aim blocking, it's still aim blocking loads better than anything movie Cap has done. Cap doesn't even have particularly good aim dodging that I can recall, and largely uses his shield (much bigger than the bracelets, or even Diana's shield) or taking people out from cover or otherwise preventing them from pulling the trigger.

Diana is jumping into the middle of swarms of gunman who are actively firing on her from all directions. She's clearly just better.

Couple that with being stronger? This isn't even a fight.

Oh I agreed at the end of page 1 that Diana stomps. Besides her strength advantage, she's just way too durable. I'm just continuing to talk about the speed thing for the sake of rule clarification.

[Captain Morgan]

Context is always relevant, and I'm saying that saying that somebody is a bullet timer because they're shown to block bullets at will seems really weird when they're clearly not moving fast enough to block actual bullets at will. Jedi don't automatically get bullet timer status for precisely this reason.

No, Jedi's don't get bullet timer status for a host of reasons, my favorite of which is blaster bolts aren't bullets and travel at speeds visible to the naked eye on screen. Jedi also have precog guidance, but the blaster bolt thing is the big one as I understand it.

Also, asking for consistent speed portrayals in any scene involving that stupid Zach Snyder "in and out of slow motion" ain't gonna get you anywhere. Again, Diana is leaping into a major gun fight for functionally the first time, is parrying bullets from all directions, and goes basically unhit. She gets knocked off balance once but still turns it into an agile counterattack. She's doing this while the camera toggles between varying levels of slow motion, making the visual representation of her speed unreliable to boot.

That's just better than Cap, dawg.

[Captain Morgan]

Oh I agreed at the end of page 1 that Diana stomps. Besides her strength advantage, she's just way too durable. I'm just continuing to talk about the speed thing for the sake of rule clarification.

Yes, and I'm saying her speed is portrayed as faster across the board than anything you are trying to compare her too (Cap, Jedi.) Like, even if we didn't have multiple scenes of her watching bullets move in slow motion, she would STILL BE FASTER.

[Lord Falcon]

No, Jedi's don't get bullet timer status for a host of reasons, my favorite of which is blaster bolts aren't bullets and travel at speeds visible to the naked eye on screen. Jedi also have precog guidance, but the blaster bolt thing is the big one as I understand it.

Also, asking for consistent speed portrayals in any scene involving that stupid Zach Snyder "in and out of slow motion" ain't gonna get you anywhere. Again, Diana is leaping into a major gun fight for functionally the first time, is parrying bullets from all directions, and goes basically unhit. She gets knocked off balance once but still turns it into an agile counterattack. She's doing this while the camera toggles between varying levels of slow motion, making the visual representation of her speed unreliable to boot.

That's just better than Cap, dawg.

I would ask that you stop arguing as if I'm still arguing about the outcome of the fight. As I said, I already agreed at the end of page 1 that Wonder Woman wins due to ridiculous durability in addition to her strength edge.

I always thought Jedi not being bullet timers was because blaster bolts are slow enough to be seen by the naked eye and are being blocked by Jedi moving at human speeds. Like, if the actual speed Jedi are moving is entirely irrelevant, then fair enough. Granting bullet time status to people who clearly don't move fast enough to bullet time might simply be how Rumbles compensates for live actors not being able to replicate comics, text stories, cartoons and so on. But I'd like a general rule clarification anyway.

[Powerboy]

I would ask that you stop arguing as if I'm still arguing about the outcome of the fight. As I said, I already agreed at the end of page 1 that Wonder Woman wins due to ridiculous durability in addition to her strength edge.

I always thought Jedi not being bullet timers was because blaster bolts are slow enough to be seen by the naked eye and are being blocked by Jedi moving at human speeds. Like, if the actual speed Jedi are moving is entirely irrelevant, then fair enough. Granting bullet time status to people who clearly don't move fast enough to bullet time might simply be how Rumbles compensates for live actors not being able to replicate comics, text stories, cartoons and so on. But I'd like a general rule clarification anyway.

I'm just not seeing where there are all these feats that contradict her bullet timing status. Not only does she watch bullets go slowly by more than once but she casually blocks multiple bullets, moving around someone in one case to block them all,. This, in and of itself, could be called aim dodging but that in no way contradicts the feats of her watching bullets go by in slow motion. The feat of deflecting multiple bullets was to protect someone else and she ran across a battlefield deflecting bullets rather than breaking stride around them. There's simply nothing I see that makes her bullet-timing feats outliers.

[The Arbiter]

I have consumed several pounds of burger and am no longer hangry.

Basically, you just nailed it on the head. Movies have budget/FX/camera issues and real human actor mobility issues to work through.

The point is they tried to display her speed using real world examples (bullets) so by presentation it fits. I personally wouldn't enjoy a movie that was all blurry from super speed arm waving or in constant slow mo lol :P

You nailed it earlier, it's a shortcoming of the medium I think.

[Lord Falcon]

Yes, and I'm saying her speed is portrayed as faster across the board than anything you are trying to compare her too (Cap, Jedi.) Like, even if we didn't have multiple scenes of her watching bullets move in slow motion, she would STILL BE FASTER.

Then I have nothing more to argue that I think that statement is wrong. Wonder Woman may feel faster even sans her bullet blocking because of how much momentum she has in her fighting style, but her movements look a step slower than Cap's from where I'm standing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx7afHUuREY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-wa4nNmTi8

[Captain Morgan]

I would ask that you stop arguing as if I'm still arguing about the outcome of the fight. As I said, I already agreed at the end of page 1 that Wonder Woman wins due to ridiculous durability in addition to her strength edge.

But you've been arguing that Wonder Woman is SLOWER. Everything I mentioned in the post you are quoting addresses her speed and skill. Which is faster/better than Cap's. Again, even taking away her watching bullets travel in slow motion she is still clearly faster than Cap.

I always thought Jedi not being bullet timers was because blaster bolts are slow enough to be seen by the naked eye and are being blocked by Jedi moving at human speeds. Like, if the actual speed Jedi are moving is entirely irrelevant, then fair enough. Granting bullet time status to people who clearly don't move fast enough to bullet time might simply be how Rumbles compensates for live actors not being able to replicate comics, text stories, cartoons and so on. But I'd like a general rule clarification anyway.

Blocking bullets (which travel too fast to be seen without slowing down the camera) that we have a real world frame of reference for velocity is not the same as blocking fictional projectiles that have no comparable equivalent, but travel slow enough to be seen by the naked eye. That's the biggest reason your analogy fails.

If we see someone parrying bullets on screen with something like a sword or a bracelet? There's a pretty good chance we will rule them a bullet timer. If it's coupled with a bit where we actually see them directly moving at speeds relative to a bullet? It's certain. This is regardless of whether we see them otherwise seeming to travel at speeds visible to the human eye. Here's a very good example of what I am talking about. It's a bit better than what Diana does, but it's a pretty solid example of the same principle at work.

[Lord Falcon]

But you've been arguing that Wonder Woman is SLOWER. Everything I mentioned in the post you are quoting addresses her speed and skill. Which is faster/better than Cap's. Again, even taking away her watching bullets travel in slow motion she is still clearly faster than Cap.


Blocking bullets (which travel too fast to be seen without slowing down the camera) that we have a real world frame of reference for velocity is not the same as blocking fictional projectiles that have no comparable equivalent, but travel slow enough to be seen by the naked eye. That's the biggest reason your analogy fails.

If we see someone parrying bullets on screen with something like a sword or a bracelet? There's a pretty good chance we will rule them a bullet timer. If it's coupled with a bit where we actually see them directly moving at speeds relative to a bullet? It's certain. This is regardless of whether we see them otherwise seeming to travel at speeds visible to the human eye. Here's a very good example of what I am talking about. It's a bit better than what Diana does, but it's a pretty solid example of the same principle at work.

Ah, I misinterpreted your message because of the one before, my bad. Yes, I was comparing WW's speed to Cap's.

I have consumed several pounds of burger and am no longer hangry.

Basically, you just nailed it on the head. Movies have budget/FX/camera issues and real human actor mobility issues to work through.

The point is they tried to display her speed using real world examples (bullets) so by presentation it fits. I personally wouldn't enjoy a movie that was all blurry from super speed arm waving or in constant slow mo lol :P

You nailed it earlier, it's a shortcoming of the medium I think.

I guess I can accept that.

[Powerboy]

I would ask that you stop arguing as if I'm still arguing about the outcome of the fight. As I said, I already agreed at the end of page 1 that Wonder Woman wins due to ridiculous durability in addition to her strength edge.

I always thought Jedi not being bullet timers was because blaster bolts are slow enough to be seen by the naked eye and are being blocked by Jedi moving at human speeds. Like, if the actual speed Jedi are moving is entirely irrelevant, then fair enough. Granting bullet time status to people who clearly don't move fast enough to bullet time might simply be how Rumbles compensates for live actors not being able to replicate comics, text stories, cartoons and so on. But I'd like a general rule clarification anyway.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of "Jedi's are not bullet timers". I think they just think it looks more spectacular if we see the bright flash of light and see the block. But I can see the argument that we do, in fact, see the bolts moving at speeds that a real life human being could potentially move fast enough to block. So I guess you are saying you think Diana's arms are not moving fast enough to block a bullet after it is fired?

I actually have a similar problem with a number of scenes in various superhero television shows where someone has a drop on a character with a gun and the character- maybe Green Arrow or a similar character- reacts and attacks before they can fire. Except what we actually see on screen is that it really was not fast enough to even come close to hitting them before they would have fired and blown his brains out.

So there's always this dichotomy in live action between what was supposed to have happened and what we actually saw- at least until special effects improve even more. But with the Wonder Woman example, it's not just that the clear intention is that she's supposed to be moving fast enough. It's combined with the fact of clear scenes where she really is moving more than fast enough to the point that the bullets are barely moving to her perception.

[Captain Morgan]

Then I have nothing more to argue that I think that statement is wrong. Wonder Woman may feel faster even sans her bullet blocking because of how much momentum she has in her fighting style, but her movements look a step slower than Cap's from where I'm standing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx7afHUuREY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-wa4nNmTi8

At that point you are just comparing apples to oranges based on visual styles. WW/DC movies overuse the Zak Snyder in and out of slow motion thing, where Cap/MU uses very quick camera cuts to give the illusion of high speed battle, a la the Bourne Identity franchise. It's better to use things which we can stop and analyze, like Bucky snagging that motorcycle, twisting around, and mounting it before it can lose forward momentum.

For a more apt comparison, look at how Cap approaches fighting gunmen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdAzDziFrEU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdAzDziFrEU

Cap never gets surrounded on sides by people firing on him like, say, Wonder Woman or his comic counter part does. He's using cover and explosives, plus the hollywood thing where bad guys just don't pull the trigger as soon as they see the bad guy.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I mean from a narrative standpoint both movies were slow, with sort of hamfisted attempts at a love subplot.

Only reason I like WW better, is because her Steve explodes.

[big_adventure]

I mean from a narrative standpoint both movies were slow, with sort of hamfisted attempts at a love subplot.

Only reason I like WW better, is because her Steve explodes.

You say that now, but you KNOW that's getting the retcon hammer and they are bringing him back as a mind-controlled assassin with a steel, um, leg or something, for WW2.