Should Emma be forgiven for her transgressions from the past?

[lurkerforyears]

I posted a lot of in thread earlier, but I think I abandoned around page 20. It never ceases to grow

Namor not only has been a super villain who flooded cities many times, and destroyed Wakanda in AvX, he also destroyed whole inhabited earths many times with both the Illuminati (Reed, Beast, Tony) and the Cabal (Thanos, Terrax and friends) during Time runs Out




The terrigen mist plotline was as bad for mutantkind, as the incursions were for all earth life. They werent actually a universal thread. Universes could be saved by destroying the earth of that Universe. The Shi Ar tried to do that. Nobody thought of moving all earth life to another planet. Both the Illuminati and the Cabal destroyed the Earths of other universes to save ours until Doom "saved" the day.

I am sure most of the animosity towards Emma is based more on the adultery-homebreaker-dresses like a slut-is a bitch angle and not her actual crimes. Her biggest crime ever is very recent, destroying the zeppelins of Ahura in IvX. Before that you would have to go back to the Firestar mini to see Emma at her most evil, and what she did there pales in comparison to what Marvel has made heroes do since the 2000s.

[Havok83]

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I am sure most of the animosity towards Emma is based more on the adultery-homebreaker-dresses like a slut-is a bitch angle and not her actual crimes. Her biggest crime ever is very recent, destroying the zeppelins of Ahura in IvX. Before that you would have to go back to the Firestar mini to see Emma at her most evil, and what she did there pales in comparison to what Marvel has made heroes do since the 2000s.

Agreed. Emma as a big bad evil villian is largely blown out of proportion

She keeps showing up to save them when has Emma ever done that? People have to save her.

She showed up in DoX and IvX to save mutantkind

[yogaflame]

Agreed. Emma as a big bad evil villian is largely blown out of proportion
She showed up in DoX and IvX to save mutantkind

She killed dirigibles full of Inhumans. With Sentinels. And mind-controlled Erik against his will. Actually, she mind controlled all the main players against their will, in order to perpetuate her fake news Cyke into everyone's minds. That action alone basically set the tone for an inevitable war between the Inhumans and mutants.

[Hizashi]

She killed dirigibles full of Inhumans. With Sentinels. And mind-controlled Erik against his will. Actually, she mind controlled all the main players against their will, in order to perpetuate her fake news Cyke into everyone's minds. That action alone basically set the tone for an inevitable war between the Inhumans and mutants.

The war was inevitable because Marvel was going to make it happen, regardless of what X-Men fans or Inhuman fans wanted.

In-universe, it was inevitable because the X-Men and Inhumans couldn’t stop a cloud. War would have happened without Emma, and the fake Cyke’s death did nothing to persuade the X-Men to fight. They called him every derogatory name under the sun, despite “seeing” his execution first-hand.

[yogaflame]

The war was inevitable because Marvel was going to make it happen, regardless of what X-Men fans or Inhuman fans wanted.

In-universe, it was inevitable because the X-Men and Inhumans couldn’t stop a cloud. War would have happened without Emma, and the fake Cyke’s death did nothing to persuade the X-Men to fight. They called him every derogatory name under the sun, despite “seeing” his execution first-hand.

Oh, so now we can just hand-wave anything we don't like as bad writing? Roger that.

In universe: war was not 'inevitable'. If Emma hadn't made Alchemy destroy the first cloud, the Inhumans wouldn't have been stirred up. If Emma hadn't made everyone see Cyke being killed by Blackbolt, the remaining mutants wouldn't have been cowed. Storm was shown to move the cloud at least twice. She could have kept it away from populated areas, thrown it into space, or recrystallized it like hail.

But, as you said, the editors wanted the story they wanted; which means they wanted Emma as a deceitful, manipulative, vengeful, genocidal maniac.

[lurkerforyears]

She killed dirigibles full of Inhumans. With Sentinels. And mind-controlled Erik against his will. Actually, she mind controlled all the main players against their will, in order to perpetuate her fake news Cyke into everyone's minds. That action alone basically set the tone for an inevitable war between the Inhumans and mutants.

having 2 "sacred" clouds bigger than category 5 hurricanes roaming all over the planet while killing and sterilizing mutants did that. Not Emma.

Writers made Emma destroy those zeppelins with Inhumans, because otherwise people wouldnt have thought she was a villain from what had happened before. The fact that they needed to do that tells you what she did before wasnt judged by the writers and editors as enough to make people believe she hadnt been acting in a comprehensible way.
They had to make her build Sentinels off panel by brainwashing Forge off panel and destroy those Zeppelins with Sentinels to really get the point across. It was a very badly written event.

In an utilitarian way, she probably saved many many lives. If she had acted completely morally we would have had 2 clouds roaming the planet, and the saturation point that made earth uninhabitable for mutants would have been reached at half the time. with only one cloud to follow by the evacuation ship, many mutants still died and were poisoned. with two it would have been far worse.

the marvel editors who thought they could gas a species to death and have the gassers be the heroes must have been quite stupid. you cant have your cake and eat it too. inhumans gas mutants to death and the real evil ones are the mutants. Imagine if someone did something like that about a genocide of our world.

[yogaflame]

I agree the story was stupid, but it was written/published. So we have to accept it as part of canon.

[lurkerforyears]

I agree the story was stupid, but it was written/published. So we have to accept it as part of canon.

I accept it as canon, Emma destroyed 3 Zeppelins of Ahura that had tripulation (if they were anything like WW2 Zeppelins it must be around 50 people). But that happened at the end of IvX, last issue, after the remaining cloud was destroyed. To me that is an indication the writers themselves didnt feel what Emma did in Death of X and all the previous pages of IvX was bad enough to make people think she was not justified, they had to make her drown a kitten in their last few remaining pages to make it clear she was the bad guy and not the Inhumans, or to avoid a Cyclops was Right situation with Emma.

What she did in IvX is the worst thing she ever did, it is very recent, and of a completely different scale than her crimes of the past. But if Namor, Sabretooth and Mystique can be in X-Men teams, so could she.

[yogaflame]

I accept it as canon, Emma destroyed 3 Zeppelins of Ahura that had tripulation (if they were anything like WW2 Zeppelins it must be around 50 people). But that happened at the end of IvX, last issue, after the remaining cloud was destroyed. To me that is an indication the writers themselves didnt feel what Emma did in Death of X and all the previous pages of IvX was bad enough to make people think she was not justified, they had to make her drown a kitten in their last few remaining pages to make it clear she was the bad guy and not the Inhumans, or to avoid a Cyclops was Right situation with Emma.

What she did in IvX is the worst thing she ever did, it is very recent, and of a completely different scale than her crimes of the past. But if Namor, Sabretooth and Mystique can be in X-Men teams, so could she.

I agree there are a lot of characters that shouldn't be X-Men. At least not if X-Men are supposed to be 'heroes'.

[Havok83]

She killed dirigibles full of Inhumans. With Sentinels. And mind-controlled Erik against his will. Actually, she mind controlled all the main players against their will, in order to perpetuate her fake news Cyke into everyone's minds. That action alone basically set the tone for an inevitable war between the Inhumans and mutants.

I know that and Ive acknowledged that. That was VERY recent in her 35+ year history. Im talking about her role prior to joining up with Xavier. She was not some big bad evil villian and pales in comparison to the likes of Magneto, Mystique, Sabretooth, heck Fenris

[Hizashi]

Oh, so now we can just hand-wave anything we don't like as bad writing? Roger that.

In universe: war was not 'inevitable'. If Emma hadn't made Alchemy destroy the first cloud, the Inhumans wouldn't have been stirred up. If Emma hadn't made everyone see Cyke being killed by Blackbolt, the remaining mutants wouldn't have been cowed. Storm was shown to move the cloud at least twice. She could have kept it away from populated areas, thrown it into space, or recrystallized it like hail.

But, as you said, the editors wanted the story they wanted; which means they wanted Emma as a deceitful, manipulative, vengeful, genocidal maniac.

No, I’m not trying to “hand-wave” what Emma did; I didn’t like it in any way. I included the first sentence for those who think that DoX or IvX or anything to do with them was well-thought out. The stories weren’t written as some natural progression for anyone, Emma included.

War was inevitable when the Inhumans were more concerned with PR than saving mutant lives, when the queen sanctioned the king to execute a man (yeah, yeah, illusion) for finding a peaceful solution to one of the holy death clouds. I stand by my statement that DoX and IvX made the Inhumans ignorant tyrants. And the remaining mutants were cowed? Why is that a good thing?

[yogaflame]

No, I’m not trying to “hand-wave” what Emma did; I didn’t like it in any way. I included the first sentence for those who think that DoX or IvX or anything to do with them was well-thought out. The stories weren’t written as some natural progression for anyone, Emma included.

War was inevitable when the Inhumans were more concerned with PR than saving mutant lives, when the queen sanctioned the king to execute a man (yeah, yeah, illusion) for finding a peaceful solution to one of the holy death clouds. I stand by my statement that DoX and IvX made the Inhumans ignorant tyrants. And the remaining mutants were cowed? Why is that a good thing?

It's not a good thing, but it's what happened.

[Hizashi]

It's not a good thing, but it's what happened.

It shouldn’t have, they should’ve sought justice.

[yogaflame]

I know that and Ive acknowledged that. That was VERY recent in her 35+ year history. Im talking about her role prior to joining up with Xavier. She was not some big bad evil villian and pales in comparison to the likes of Magneto, Mystique, Sabretooth, heck Fenris

Then go back to her original origin as a torturer and corrupter. Or a little later as a rapist. Or a little later as a child trafficker. Or a little later as an insider trader(even Martha Steward went to jail for that). Or a little later as someone who possibly killed a police officer investigating her as a murderer and embezzler.

This is not an isolated incident(in which case I'd be in favor of hand-waving; there are glaring inconsistencies in X-Men canon as a whole). Emma has always been mean and nasty. Sometimes its playful nasty, sometimes its sociopathic nasty. Its a core tenet of her character, and she has only really been repentant in a limited capacity back in the early/mid Gen X days. Other than that, even during her X-Men days, she revels in being a spiteful monster.

[Tycon]

Or a little later as someone who possibly killed a police officer investigating her as a murderer and embezzler.

There were no narrative implications that hinted that the officer was killed. Just a simple knock out from a mini-psychic attack.