Red Hood & The Outlaws #17 Preview/Eventual Discussion

[Aioros22]

Well, holee shite. The calm before the storm.

Those double spreads, dayum.

[Aioros22]

Not to spoil the cliffhanger in any way but the whole issue is rif with character interaction and motivation, especially as noted, between Croco and Jason which ties to Waller`s words to him at the end. As someone who never read about Harvest over in Teen Titans (spoiler aleeert for Fandom mention) this seems like an afthermath chapter done by Loedbell about a creation of his..and it`s pulled beautifully without requiring to read the whole baggage - you just see where it connects and move on. Soy does amazing spreads on a place hunted, eery and you feel that the characters as well as readers can`t wait to get out of the claustrophobic level of dark corridors and rooms.

And as things feel too easy towards the end of this chapter..

[G-Potion]

Spoiler tags just in case.

spoilers:

I find the talk between Jason/Croc and Jason/Artemis telling. Croc trying to convince Jason to change his way for his friends and Jason himself (but mostly for his half of those weapons I'm sure), if Jason takes it to heart, could, in the future, result in either a completely different direction for Red Hood or that he will go solo eventually as to not drag his friends down with him. And later with Artemis, Jason seems accepting about Bizarro not needing them anymore. And it feels like he already came to that conclusion for quite a while, like he never expected his teammates to stick around forever. Is it the reason why Jason hasn't made a big deal about how Bizarro has been acting?

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[G-Potion]

spoilers:

By the way, is Artemis Grace her name now?

end of spoilers

[G-Potion]

Also what do you guys feel about spoilers:

Roy's drinking problem? I've seen some few complaints on Tumblr about how it contradicts with how Roy's written in Rebirth so can anyone confirm that for me?

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[G-Potion]

Also it's interesting that Artemis calls Harley Quinn a child. What about Jason I wonder...

[Aioros22]

So, to address your various points:

spoilers:

Yes, I do think Jason`s nonchallant attitude about "let it be what it be" regarding his teammates is hidden in the meaning of what Croco said, which also ties in to what Waller told him at the way out. Croco totally wanted more than his share of weapons to bring to Waller, he was totally bartering the deal mostly because he can, he knows Jason deep down better throught Roy than any other criminal in Gotham City. If we go back to what Waller told him, all this ties up to only one road: Jason`s Future`s End! The Titans mentions is all kind of suberb and Fandom ticklish. Roy appearantly, at least as far as Loedbell is concerned, has been wanting to drink (which isn`t the same as flat out drinking, key difference) more often ever since he`s come back to the Titans, his "oldest" friends. This is all simbology, of course. Like Jason says, that can`t be healthy. So, who was he (amazing as it is) most healthly with? Jason. Who broke up? Jason. Where does that eventually lead him? Future`s End! - In fact, his talk to Croco about weaponize him better to wipe out the criminal underworld equally reflects that. Thus, when Croc talks that he isn` the cold hardass that he pass by equally reflects in Jason`s perception of Bizarro. His criminal battle is an escape, an excuse to not expect further from him or others and true enough, that has been his own arc since Rebirth was launched. Which leads us to... Bizarro. This is his arc and his psycology is tremendous. A bit creepy as well, cold, calculating (not like crazy Timbo thought). He clearly feels and ever since he was shaped into adulthood by Luthor, he`s been seeing memories and mentioning events he could not know about before, like the former Bizarro clone`s life and death. Biz is very literally our own Frankeinstein monster. There`s a sadness in him that is sinking. Right now in JL, the current Luthor is starting to clash with Superman, despite being mentioned loud and clear that this isn`t the same Luthor we (and Superman) are used to. Still, the untrust from Kal may set him up a similar path and I`m wondering if our Bizarro is part of any safe measure. Which leads up right towards the cliffhanger. Someone is about to take a bath.

end of spoilers

[Aioros22]

Harley is clearly immature to a new level. The page where she tries to use the hammer again had me bawling but I found interesting that Artemis notices how Queenie is basically a necrophilic at heart.

[Aioros22]

By the way, Dark, as obviously expected, your friend`s dream theory was just shut down to Hades.

[AJpyro]

Based Lobdell bringing the good chara. and interesting stories again. Jay and Arty are in for something.

Also that last full page is full on ominous.

[G-Potion]

So, to address your various points:

spoilers:

His criminal battle is an escape, an excuse to not expect further from him or others and true enough, that has been his own arc since Rebirth was launched. Which leads us to...

end of spoilers

Great point. I read the review from BatmanNews and this issue is considred good fun. But when I think about it, the underlying sadness is hard to miss. In fact, it has been there since the first issue, in the way Jason operates. It ties back to what he said about not wanting to be alive. His "let it be what it be" attitude is the accumulation of jadedness and disappointment he's been through. Even with the people he thinks as family now, he doesn't expect them to be around any longer than they should.

And yes!! Future's End is where it's at. As depressing at it is, it is still so far the fitting eventuality for Jason I think.

[Aioros22]

How fitting that two of my favorite characters of this medium are being told today that they hold the keys to change a set future path. Future`s End is Jason`s most likely older self. The lone wolf, taking one currupt ******* at the time. Still not crossing lines but very "if I catch you is because you deserve it" pragmatic road. But feeling very end of the road, like he`ll do it until he`s stopped or dies.

I wonder if Tynion`s use his older Jason only stopping when he lost limbs against those 100 mystical assault, leads any credence to it. That is, if he had even that in mind at all. Heh, who knows.

[G-Potion]

I forgot Titans Hunt. Of course Tumblr would love to blame everything on Lobdell.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...s-18-spoilers/

Aioros did you ghostwrite this lol.

And the future doesn’t bear well for how Roy Harper deal with his drugs and alcohol addictions… as long as he stays with Titans that is. Any room back with the Outlaws?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Solid issue and while it did address my complaint about the uselessness of bringing guest characters the whole reasoning still felt somewhat weak (Like Harley remained utterly pointless) and it did nothing to justify the whole shindling with Batwoman's team. As people has pointed out, Jason and Croc's scene was the best part of the issue. Is not everyday that you seen Croc written as a level headed, mentor type and acknowledge their mutual ties with Roy was simply fantastic. I thought it was very touching to see that Jason does miss Roy, showing an enormous amount of character growth.

Those people getting their panties in a bunch over the bit about drinking are jumping to conclusions and failing to see the nuance on Lobdell's writing as usual. Roy seeing Croc every time he needs a drink doesn't mean he's getting drunk, it means he's going to Croc so he doesn't give in to the drink Just like Roy did back on RH/A #5. And those people are being disingenuous to boot, complaining about Lobdell ignoring Abnett's writing (when is not) despite the first thing Abnett did when he got his hands on Roy was getting him completely drunk.

Jason's talk with Croc about the weapons is a clever callback to Jason's thoughts when he first meet Kori (the're pretty much the same in fact) and just like back then Jason realized he was straying away from Ducra's teachings, Croc serves the same role here. I doubt this and his later talk with Artemis means that Jason is deciding to go solo or anything like that, rather, I believe is the opposite. Jason deciding to open to his teammates so he doesn't slip on the same mindset that cost him Roy's friendship. Add Jason's realization that Bizarro has pretty much everything controlled and is no wonder than in two issues he finally gets the courage to ask Artemis on a date.

Speaking of Bizarro, he feels like a mere plot device right now. Not getting much in the way of characterization and just being there to steer the plot. Not a bad thing but a definitive downgrade from the strong showing he had shown on previous issues. On the other hand
Lobdell still struggles with Artemis, with her individual scenes being the weakest of the trio so far. Lobdell clearly needs to pair her with Jason or Bizarro to make her scenes interesting. Otherwise they just kind of meander off like the scene with Harley proved, funny but ultimately irrelevant.

[G-Potion]

Jason's talk with Croc about the weapons is a clever callback to Jason's thoughts when he first meet Kori (the're pretty much the same in fact) and just like back then Jason realized he was straying away from Ducra's teachings, Croc serves the same role here. I doubt this and his later talk with Artemis means that Jason is deciding to go solo or anything like that, rather, I believe is the opposite. Jason deciding to open to his teammates so he doesn't slip on the same mindset that cost him Roy's friendship.

Still, do you think if it goes that way, would it change the way Red Hood operates? Less shadow agent and more full-on hero? Because as both Croc (and Waller) pointed out, their "criminal" activities are gonna land him and his teammates in prison eventually. So it's more than just being open to friends. It's about getting out of the sewer completely.