Red Hood & The Outlaws #17 Preview/Eventual Discussion

[Assam]

but Abnett threw all of that out the window from the first issue of Titans Hunt.

Tossing away Lobdell's work, possibly bringing back Lian in a few months; I may prefer Percy's work with the character (It helps that unlike Abnett his book that uses Roy is really good) but damn if Abnett isn't Roy's savior!

Also, I'm with G-Potion; I've seen maybe one or two people say he should come back to the Outlaws on Tumblr and MANY more about how they're still glad he's back where be belongs.

[JasonTodd428]

Tossing away Lobdell's work, possibly bringing back Lian in a few months; I may prefer Percy's work with the character (It helps that unlike Abnett his book that uses Roy is really good) but damn if Abnett isn't Roy's savior!

Sorry but I really strongly disagree with that and even bringing back Lian, if that is indeed what happens, doesn't cancel out my first impression of Abnett's Roy. Drunk off his gourd Roy is NOT a good look for the character in my opinion anymore then drug relapsed Roy was a good look for him. All Abnett did there was remind me of parts of Roy's pre-reboot history that I'd much rather forget because of how poorly the character was handled at the time. Tossing away Lobdell's work isn't really the crux of my problem with Abnett's portrayal of Roy or even with Titans as a whole its just a small part of it. This was the larger part of my problem.

Also, I'm with G-Potion; I've seen maybe one or two people say he should come back to the Outlaws on Tumblr and MANY more about how they're still glad he's back where be belongs.

Back where he belongs maybe but it's still sad to see him in Titans when I know Abnett is capable of better work in a team book setting. Titans just isn't up to his usual level in my opinion. I found his work on Earth 2: Society to be far superior insofar as giving all characters on a team a voice and a chance to shine equally. Most of the characters in Titans feel like window dressing to me or at least they did when I was reading the book.

[Assam]

Sorry but I really strongly disagree with that and even bringing back Lian, if that is indeed what happens, doesn't cancel out my first impression of Abnett's Roy. Drunk off his gourd Roy is NOT a good look for the character in my opinion anymore then drug relapsed Roy was a good look for him. All Abnett did there was remind me of parts of Roy's pre-reboot history that I'd much rather forget because of how poorly the character was handled at the time. Tossing away Lobdell's work isn't really the crux of my problem with Abnett's portrayal of Roy or even with Titans as a whole its just a small part of it. This was the larger part of my problem.

I actually didn't much care for Roy in Titans Hunt at all. Only in Rebirth did I feel Abnett got a handle on the character.

Back where he belongs maybe but it's still sad to see him in Titans when I know Abnett is capable of better work in a team book setting. Titans just isn't up to his usual level in my opinion. I found his work on Earth 2: Society to be far superior insofar as giving all characters on a team a voice and a chance to shine equally. Most of the characters in Titans feel like window dressing to me or at least they did when I was reading the book.

I maintain the book's first arc was really good (I know you disagree) but still far below plenty of other stuff Abnett has written. This is the guy who wrote one of my favorite comic stories ever with Legion Lost. But frankly, even with the book's poor writing since the crossover I still prefer Roy being there to the far superior Red Hood and the Outlaws. The writing in Titans is bad, but it isn't detrimental to Roy's character (And again, if Lian comes back, it'll be the single best move any writer could make for him) whereas while RHatO is written very well, getting wrapped back up with that bunch for an extended period again would be horrible in the long run. Sorry, but Lobdell has no benefit of the doubt from me; I don't believe for a second he wouldn't regress Roy again.

[Aioros22]

His Roy was the improvement from Cry For Justice to Pre Flashpoint, which left the character a walking dead in dark alleys, snapping kitten necks, what do you mean regressing I`ll mantain that at the very least Lodbell made Roy doable to be used by other writers again and that wasn`t an easy feat given where he picked him up. Not simply a "anything better than zero is good", he gave Roy a good character dinamic with Jason and his own sub arcs that at least made him relatable.

I`m glad Liam is back but the point kind of stands, Titans is going to be a cursed book until a writer and office got the balls to stop riding the nostalgia factor from Wolfman and his co plotters/artists. Those days aren`t coming back ever again. I give mad respect for Jurgens and his brief stint because at least he tried to inject something new despite the obvious attempt at using the Wildebeest Society.

[JasonTodd428]

I actually didn't much care for Roy in Titans Hunt at all. Only in Rebirth did I feel Abnett got a handle on the character.

To be honest with you I never got over that initial impression of Roy in Titans Hunt so much so that I dropped that book at issue one over exactly that. Coming as I was from RHATO it really felt like a complete regression of the character to me and so I felt it was a huge mis-step on Abnett's part. It also unfortunately colored my perception of the Titans book as a whole a bit although the far bigger problem for me initially was Booth's art, which I can't stand anymore.

I maintain the book's first arc was really good (I know you disagree) but still far below plenty of other stuff Abnett has written. This is the guy who wrote one of my favorite comic stories ever with Legion Lost. But frankly, even with the book's poor writing since the crossover I still prefer Roy being there to the far superior Red Hood and the Outlaws. The writing in Titans is bad, but it isn't detrimental to Roy's character (And again, if Lian comes back, it'll be the single best move any writer could make for him) whereas while RHatO is written very well, getting wrapped back up with that bunch for an extended period again would be horrible in the long run. Sorry, but Lobdell has no benefit of the doubt from me; I don't believe for a second he wouldn't regress Roy again.

Abnett in my mind had already regressed Roy in Titans Hunt to the detriment of the character so he gets no more benefit of the doubt from me particularly since, to my mind, he's not doing right by anyone else in Titans either with his poor handling of all of them. Like I said I know he can do far better work with teams and that he's not doing so here is a major disappointment to me.

Lobdell really only reset Roy to a point prior to Lian basically eliminating all the resulting nonsense with her death that led to his downward spiral back to addiction and that was more due to the nature of the N52 reboot than anything else. Sure a lot of good was thrown out with the bad but to be honest I'm not going to mourn the loss of Cry for Justice or Deathstroke's Titans or any of that nonsense.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Tossing away Lobdell's work, possibly bringing back Lian in a few months; I may prefer Percy's work with the character (It helps that unlike Abnett his book that uses Roy is really good) but damn if Abnett isn't Roy's savior!

Also, I'm with G-Potion; I've seen maybe one or two people say he should come back to the Outlaws on Tumblr and MANY more about how they're still glad he's back where be belongs.

Tumblr is never a good point of reference for, well, pretty much anything (and even less when is Lobdell related) but comments on FB, 4chan, the aforementioned BC and Twitter have people expressing their wish to see Jason and Roy hanging out together.

EDIT: Wait

Regress Roy? How exactly would do Lobdell that? This is a guy that made core of his character his compromise with his sobriety and whom made him mature through his experiences.

Abnett on the other hand got him drunk as soon as he could and reduced him to an inmature manchild that is pining for attention.

[JasonTodd428]

Tumblr is never a good point of reference for, well, pretty much anything (and even less when is Lobdell related) but comments on FB, 4chan, the aforementioned BC and Twitter have people expressing their wish to see Jason and Roy hanging out together.

Exactly so. There are more places to look than tumblr and we also have no idea what people who don't post to social media platforms or forums but who are fans of the character might think about Roy in Titans vs Roy with the Outlaws.

[Alycat]

It actually makes sense though. Lobdell's Roy was always someone that completely threw himself over new things to avoid facing his past (his falling out with Ollie, his break up with Kori) only looking it eye to eye when he was forced to. Jason on the other hand is someone that likes to keep things to himself and who really gets hung up over falling out with other people. So, is only natural that Jason is the one externalizing his feelings while Roy just keeps burying them .

That said, even if it would be nice for other writers to acknowledge their past, is not something I'm particularly bothered with. RHATO is a middle tier book that has never been considered by other writers before and I see no reason for that to change now, so if is acknowledged, good. If not, good. Lobdell hasn't forgotten about it and he's the one who matters, being the one steering the ship and all.

And since the other books are been mediocre to bad, I'm glad they aren't messing up with the previous stories anyways.

Oh and for the record, I've actually seen a lot people espousing the idea that Roy should go back with the Outlaws so isn't like sweeping the Outlaws under the rug is what all the fans want.

Green Arrow isn't bad or mediocre and Roy is quite obvious with his feelings there. Titans are indeed poor, but he has no problem showing feelings there either. As a reader there is no reason for me to believe that Roy has any current care about Jason, so its jarring that Lobell brings it up. His old friemds do not give a crap about him. So far that portion of the Outlaws means very little to their devlopment and unless you only follow Jason, then it stands out.

That last statement is pretty subjective as well since I've certainly not seen what you have. A lot of people are glad the old crew is back together, which must explain why that awful book keeps getting sales.

[JasonTodd428]

A lot of people are glad the old crew is back together, which must explain why that awful book keeps getting sales.

A lot of people are glad to have them back together and those people are likely still buying the book sure but in all honesty sales are not necessarily indicative of the quality of a particular book. There have been far too many low selling yet critically acclaimed books out there for me to believe that sales equate in any way with the quality of a given book. Its far more likely that people are buying Titans out of a sense of nostalgia despite its flaws and because they'd rather have a flawed book then no book at all. Personally, I much rather have a really good Titans book over an extremely flawed myself.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Green Arrow isn't bad or mediocre and Roy is quite obvious with his feelings there. Titans are indeed poor, but he has no problem showing feelings there either. As a reader there is no reason for me to believe that Roy has any current care about Jason, so its jarring that Lobell brings it up. His old friemds do not give a crap about him. So far that portion of the Outlaws means very little to their devlopment and unless you only follow Jason, then it stands out.

Roy expresses the emotions he feels in the moment, he never dwells in the past.

As for "As a reader there's no reason to believe Roy cares for Jason" is not only subjective but a pretty narrow point of view that is naive. I mean, that is just how comic books work, relationships only matter when the writer/editorial want to. And as it was pointed out earlier, there's a notable regression on Roy's characterization compared to his Outlaws days. Even those who aren't familiar with them, are quick to note how underused everyone is on the book.

That last statement is pretty subjective as well since I've certainly not seen what you have. A lot of people are glad the old crew is back together, which must explain why that awful book keeps getting sales.

You haven't looked then. Looking for Red Hood and The Outlaws on social media gets you five results related with the OG per one result of the new roster. Hell, even with all of its bias, the tumblr tag for red hood and the outlaws is like a 70% of Kori, Roy and Jason hanging out.

The book does keep getting sales, true but as JasonTodd428 accurately points out, is more due the brand than an actual reflection of its quality. Just looking at Comics Beat and Comichron charts, selling on the neighborhood of 30k copies isn't nothing to write home about, especially when take into account that Titans is a much bigger brand than the Outlaws.

[Alycat]

A lot of people are glad to have them back together and those people are likely still buying the book sure but in all honesty sales are not necessarily indicative of the quality of a particular book. There have been far too many low selling yet critically acclaimed books out there for me to believe that sales equate in any way with the quality of a given book. Its far more likely that people are buying Titans out of a sense of nostalgia despite its flaws and because they'd rather have a flawed book then no book at all. Personally, I much rather have a really good Titans book over an extremely flawed myself.

I just don't get it. I'd think I'd rather have no Titans book than this terribleness. But that was my point. People are buying it for nostalgia and because they like the crew together, not necessarily because it is a well-written book, Becuase it's not.

Roy expresses the emotions he feels in the moment, he never dwells in the past.

As for "As a reader there's no reason to believe Roy cares for Jason" is not only subjective but a pretty narrow point of view that is naive. I mean, that is just how comic books work, relationships only matter when the writer/editorial want to. And as it was pointed out earlier, there's a notable regression on Roy's characterization compared to his Outlaws days. Even those who aren't familiar with them, are quick to note how underused everyone is in the book.



You haven't looked then. Looking for Red Hood and The Outlaws on social media gets you five results related to the OG per one result of the new roster. Hell, even with all of its bias, the Tumblr tag for a red hood and the outlaws is like a 70% of Kori, Roy, and Jason hanging out.

The book does keep getting sales, true but as JasonTodd428 accurately points out, is more due to the brand than an actual reflection of its quality. Just looking at Comics Beat and Comichron charts, selling on the neighborhood of 30k copies isn't nothing to write home about, especially when take into account that Titans is a much bigger brand than the Outlaws.

Except, even when a relationship is not in your face, many times you at least get the sense that certain characters care about other ones. This moment with Croc and Jason is an example of that. Dick' and Damian's relationship is an example of that. Bruce's relationships. Heck a problem with N52 Tim is beside Jason we didn't get that and that's the problem here. I don't get the sense that Roy or Starfire care about Jason, but they are still important to him. That's why its jarring. Of course, it's subjective, but what is not is the lack of-of reciprocal feelings from Roy at the moment. Where is the proof that I shouldn't believe this? I don't see why that's narrow or naive to point out. Plenty of other relationships ( negative or positive) are handled by several authors but can still be felt. I don't get that from Roy and Jason. Its one sided and if one wanted to look at it a certain way, could be viewed at useless dig at Roy having his old friends back.

I honestly don't see much regression, but that's subjective because I didn't care for Outlaws Roy. He certainly regressed in importance, but that's in Titans. In Green arrow he seems downright mature. Of course Outlaws Roy was a regression itself, but still better than dead cat nonsense and it was an N52 problem for everyone.

Sorry, but I honestly don't think Tumblr matters for feeling about a character. Besides disliking Roy in Titans doesn't necessarily mean wanting him in Outlaws either. A lot of people seem to want Pre dead cats and kid Roy back. Like I pointed out, a lot of people also enjoy the OG Titans getting back together, which was my point about that book. They like that brand and nostalgia. I never said it was a quality title.

[JasonTodd428]

I just don't get it. I'd think I'd rather have no Titans book than this terribleness. But that was my point. People are buying it for nostalgia and because they like the crew together, not necessarily because it is a well-written book, Becuase it's not.

Yeah, I don't get it either but then again I have never understood why people who profess to hating certain books continue to buy and read them either.

Except, even when a relationship is not in your face, many times you at least get the sense that certain characters care about other ones. This moment with Croc and Jason is an example of that. Dick' and Damian's relationship is an example of that. Bruce's relationships. Heck a problem with N52 Tim is beside Jason we didn't get that and that's the problem here. I don't get the sense that Roy or Starfire care about Jason, but they are still important to him. That's why its jarring. Of course, it's subjective, but what is not is the lack of-of reciprocal feelings from Roy at the moment. Where is the proof that I shouldn't believe this? I don't see why that's narrow or naive to point out. Plenty of other relationships ( negative or positive) are handled by several authors but can still be felt. I don't get that from Roy and Jason. Its one sided and if one wanted to look at it a certain way, could be viewed at useless dig at Roy having his old friends back.

I think the best explanation for the lack of reciprocal feelings on the part of Roy and Kori boils down to the writers handling those two currently simply don't care to reference Jason or the Outlaws in their books. The thing that makes it particularly jarring for me is the fact that Kori and Roy are on teams which have Jason's "brothers" on them who are both aware that the two were once members of the Outlaws. THAT right there is what really bothers me about it because it would be a simple thing to have them ask about Jason in the same way Jason asked Croc about Roy here. THAT is literally all it would take.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Except, even when a relationship is not in your face, many times you at least get the sense that certain characters care about other ones. This moment with Croc and Jason is an example of that. Dick' and Damian's relationship is an example of that. Bruce's relationships. Heck a problem with N52 Tim is beside Jason we didn't get that and that's the problem here. I don't get the sense that Roy or Starfire care about Jason, but they are still important to him. That's why its jarring. Of course, it's subjective, but what is not is the lack of-of reciprocal feelings from Roy at the moment. Where is the proof that I shouldn't believe this? I don't see why that's narrow or naive to point out. Plenty of other relationships ( negative or positive) are handled by several authors but can still be felt. I don't get that from Roy and Jason. Its one sided and if one wanted to look at it a certain way, could be viewed at useless dig at Roy having his old friends back.

It is naive because you are ignoring the simple fact that there haven't been a way for the writers to include a reference to Jason in a way that is not only natural but justified by the context. Making the characters mention past relationships out of the blue is not only jarring but poor writing, and that is in fact something Jason suffered in the past, having his entire character defined by his love-hate relationship with Bruce.

You mention Dick and Damian's relationship but that relationship only really comes up when the two of them meet. You don't have Dick or Damian stopping in he middle of a combat or in the middle of an unrelated chat just to ponder what the other might be doing at the moment. By the same token, isn't like Jason keeps pining over Roy and Kori all the time either, the first reference to Roy and Kori was until issue 9 and that was because the story lead Jason to Qurac, the same place where the original Outlaws started, the next time they were mentioned was when Jason was thinking about the meaningful relationships on their life and so on. Roy and Kori on the other hand haven't found themselves in a situation where a call back to the Outlaws fits. Abnett/Editorial realize this and that is why they acknowledged the Outlaws when Roy and Kori meet again during the Lazarus Contract.

As for seeing it like a useless gig? One have to be pretty dense to genuinely buy that interpretation because first, is not something said by Jason and second, is not a exaggeration considering the way Roy has been treated so far on the Titans book.

I honestly don't see much regression, but that's subjective because I didn't care for Outlaws Roy. He certainly regressed in importance, but that's in Titans. In Green arrow he seems downright mature. Of course Outlaws Roy was a regression itself, but still better than dead cat nonsense and it was an N52 problem for everyone.

And this is the core of the discussion, isn't it? Because no matter how much me or someone else argue otherwise, you've made your choice and you won't change your mind at all.

Sorry, but I honestly don't think Tumblr matters for feeling about a character. Besides disliking Roy in Titans doesn't necessarily mean wanting him in Outlaws either. A lot of people seem to want Pre dead cats and kid Roy back. Like I pointed out, a lot of people also enjoy the OG Titans getting back together, which was my point about that book. They like that brand and nostalgia. I never said it was a quality title.

I have no idea what are you talking about here.

Your previous argument was the following

That last statement is pretty subjective as well since I've certainly not seen what you have. A lot of people are glad the old crew is back together, which must explain why that awful book keeps getting sales.

For the first part of your argument ("I haven't seen what you have") I'm just citing clear examples that you can easily check to see that the original Outlaws still have a strong presence in the minds of the fans, and thus, if your metric about the Titans being OK is because people wanted to see them together again, then getting back the Outlaws is equally as valid.

Next I mention actual sales numbers to show that the nostalgia factor and the brand about the Titans is in a sharp decline and thus your statement that the book will sell regardless quality isn't accurate.

I think the best explanation for the lack of reciprocal feelings on the part of Roy and Kori boils down to the writers handling those two currently simply don't care to reference Jason or the Outlaws in their books. The thing that makes it particularly jarring for me is the fact that Kori and Roy are on teams which have Jason's "brothers" on them who are both aware that the two were once members of the Outlaws. THAT right there is what really bothers me about it because it would be a simple thing to have them ask about Jason in the same way Jason asked Croc about Roy here. THAT is literally all it would take.

That of course is the only reason for this discrepancies (and we might add that is not something that only affects RHATO but nearly every other middle tier book) but if we want to argue from a writing perspective, the difference here is that Croc and Jason's only connection is Roy, whereas Roy and Kori relationships with Dick and Damian aren't based just on Jason.

[RedBird]

Also the whole talk with Croc, spoilers:

Jason is holding a single wing from Harvest.

end of spoilers

I suppose it has a symbolic meaning of sort?

I would have guessed so, Soy certainly likes adding his own symbolic visuals within the narrative, I wouldn't be surprised if he was purposeful with the wing, which usually carry the meaning of freedom, humans with wings in particular being interpreted as angelic, therefore pure, good and rising to the heavens, a direction made even more obvious with the Christ imagery of Harvest spread out on that cross. And when considering the conversation of morality occurring in this very moment between Jason and Croc who points out that Jason isn't as bad as he claims to be. I would have thought that the image of Jason holding a symbol of purity in one hand (the wing) and a symbol of violence in the other (the gun) is meant to be highlighting the duality inside him, that yes, Jason is a gun slinging criminal, but also an inherently good figure.

[G-Potion]

I would have thought that the image of Jason holding a symbol of purity in one hand (the wing) and a symbol of violence in the other (the gun) is meant to be highlighting the duality inside him, that yes, Jason is a gun slinging criminal, but also an inherently good figure.

Oooh nice! I love all of the interpretations on the wing that you guys are coming up with.