View Poll Results: What should Diana's origin be ?

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  • Zeus

    27 39.71%
  • Other God

    1 1.47%
  • regular person

    1 1.47%
  • She doesn't need a father

    39 57.35%
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Thread: Diana's father

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    Nope. Diana doesn't need a father...
    And even with the Zeus origin, she still doesn't have one.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Why?
    Because I don't see how your concerns/critique of JAG (just a guy) as Diana's father fits with your position of support of Zeus as Diana's father. See below:

    As I said: Also, it doesn't track with me that such a person wouldn't be first among Diana's reasons for leaving the island, thereby changing her character arc completely.
    Why does her JAG have to be first among Diana's reasons to leave the island, especially if he died 250 years ago? In both the Nu52, and the WW, Diana leaving the island was all a part of Zeus' plan for her - yet, you support that, correct?

    The argument AGAINST Zeus is that it is not unique. If advocacy for a new character, JAG, is acceptable, but it should be unique, correct?
    A part of the argument against Zeus as Diana's dad is that it is generic - yet, you support it. The format of a JAG is not entirely unique, but it's still more unique than just another kid from Zeus. How many movies, books, and video games are based on kids of Hippolyta and a guy - then, how many are about kids of Zeus? Is She-Hercules really that unique?
    Last edited by Awonder; 12-08-2017 at 03:25 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    And even with the Zeus origin, she still doesn't have one.
    That's factually incorrect. Sure, Zeus didn't raise Diana (nor was he heavily involved in raising most/all of his kids). That doesn't make him not her father. In Nu52, Azzarello's entire 3+ year run was about his plan for Diana. Even movie is about Diana fulfilling the role Zeus has for her.
    Last edited by Awonder; 12-08-2017 at 03:49 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    That's factually incorrect. Sure, Zeus didn't raise Diana (nor was he heavily involved in raising most/all of his kids).
    Which makes him not her father in my book.
    In Nu52, Azzarello's entire 3+ year run was about his plan for Diana. Even movie is about Diana fulfilling the role Zeus has for her.
    But you can do both stories with the clay origin without changing a thing.

  5. #65
    Been lurking since '08 Marik Swift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    "Just stop" what exactly? And how are you in any position to tell me to stop anything?

    In your post that I initially replied to, you wanted to claim "truth" to the myths, right? But, what is that assumed "truth" based on? Stories. Stories that are famous for the one-breast Amazons. Yet, there is no known truth to that. So, doesn't that point to a very big hole in your assumption of "truth"?
    The myths condensed:
    "The Amazons were a society of warrior women who cut off their breasts to be better warriors."

    What you hear:
    "The Amazons were a society of warrior women."

    So by your logic, despite everything said about the Amazons being myth, you'll only accept what you want as truth, while dismissing everything else as lacking proof?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    As for the sexism, are you going to argue that sexism isn't real? Are you going to claim the Ancient Greeks (as well as so much of human history), those from whom we get these myths, were not sexist? If they were sexist (and they were), and if they were not big fans of these strong, independent women, then why should we assume the "truth" of their stories without questioning that the sexism in their worldview may have informed how they portrayed the world in their stories?
    Why should we assume the stories of them being warriors are truth without question? Why should we accept there ever even existed a Hippolyta? Why should we accept that Athena was even a virgin?

    You don't get to pick and choose what you want as truth. It's all myth, and what you choose doesn't just become true or false at your choosing.
    Last edited by Marik Swift; 12-08-2017 at 04:47 PM.

  6. #66
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Okay, folks, a bit of editing today on people's posts. Let's bring it down a notch, shall we?

    - Lay off the snarky 'dears' in posts
    - Stop with the personal attacks
    - Don't ascribe negative descriptions to groups of people/fans

    I'm on the verge of some temporary bans, but since it's the holiday season and I'm happily baking cookies, I'm laying off for now
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  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Because I don't see how your concerns/critique of JAG (just a guy) as Diana's father fits with your position of support of Zeus as Diana's father.
    My support of Zeus as her father is reliant on Zeus not being a character in the story. I realize that is confusing. I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Why does her JAG have to be first among Diana's reasons to leave the island, especially if he died 250 years ago? In both the Nu52, and the WW, Diana leaving the island was all a part of Zeus' plan for her - yet, you support that, correct?
    No, I don't support Diana's actions being anyone's master plan. I'm under the impression the "master plan" of nu52 was Athena's, and the scripting in the last act of the film was a garbage fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    A part of the argument against Zeus as Diana's dad is that it is generic - yet, you support it. The format of a JAG is not entirely unique, but it's still more unique than just another kid from Zeus. How many movies, books, and video games are based on kids of Hippolyta and a guy - then, how many are about kids of Zeus? Is She-Hercules really that unique?
    I support Hippolyte creating life with her most significant and challenging relationship.

  8. #68
    Incredible Member Amazon Swordsman's Avatar
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    The main problem with the Zeus origin is that it is a bastardized version of the character and her world. People forget that WW was merely inspired by Greco-Roman myths, not copied to the T, which makes me scratch my head when people say him being her father just "makes sense", whatever that means.

    WW is a subversion of the myths and making Zeus her biological father is a re-subversion of that. It created a paradigm shift that makes her mythos subordinate to the myths they were originally designed to subvert.

    It not only includes more male voices in a narrative that was once predominantly feminine, but it changes character and group dynamics as well as motivations.

    With Zeus as her dad, instead of focusing on the POV from Diana's perspective, I feel like writers on the WW comic focus more on writing around her because of that fact, and there have been casualties because of that.

    I first came to know Wonder Woman as a child molded from clay brought to life by the gods. Turning that out to be a lie completely nullifies that and does not leave it in tact at all.

    I am familiar with a Wonder Woman who used to call on Hera, one of her patron goddesses for help in times of distress. But in order for Zeus to be her dad, they have to throw Hippolyta under the bus with shots to her character. Rather than Hippolyta forbidding her daughter to earn the right to be WW, and Diana participating in an act of defiance, Hippolyta had to shield her daughter from Hera, to save her from her wrath which which has quite a reputation.

    So, on one hand, Hippopyta lies to both Diana and Hera in order to not only protect her daughter from her, she also does it to cover her own behind. On the other hand, you have a Hippolyta who is just overly protective of her daughter who worries about her daughter experiencing a brave new world, as any good mother would do.

    This daddy trope they've got also opens the floodgates for new relatives to take time and focus away from Diana in her own comic. Characters like Jason and Grail are clearly pet characters that some writers may not even well care enough about, but they are forced to write them and around Diana because said person thought they'd be good ideas.

    Well, time will tell...but tired tropes like that, as far as they've been executed so far, get no applause from me.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    My support of Zeus as her father is reliant on Zeus not being a character in the story. I realize that is confusing. I'm sorry.
    Zeus doesn't have to be physically present to still be a a BIG part of redefining the WW narrative though. Just look at religion in general. Few even claim to have seen whichever god they subscribe to, yet, s/he is still very influential.

    No, I don't support Diana's actions being anyone's master plan. I'm under the impression the "master plan" of nu52 was Athena's, and the scripting in the last act of the film was a garbage fire.
    Well, the actual text of Nu52 doesn't support your "impression." "Garbage fire" or not, it's in the movie, and not just at the end. Zeus plays the biggest part in the story Hippolyta tells her daughter. Still, I think we'd basically agree on tossing out the "master plan" motif.

    I support Hippolyte creating life with her most significant and challenging relationship.
    And you want it to be Zeus, correct?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Evidence points towards there being bugs.
    And that's not counting all the sikver age stories where some wizard type turned her back into clay.

    Bad writers are going to write bad stories that show they dont understand the character regardless of her origin
    Last edited by Lex Luthor; 12-08-2017 at 04:59 PM.

  11. #71
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    ...but since it's the holiday season and I'm happily baking cookies, . . .
    Hopefully you're making some snickerdoodles!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amazon Swordsman View Post
    The main problem with the Zeus origin is that it is a bastardized version of the character and her world. People forget that WW was merely inspired by Greco-Roman myths, not copied to the T, which makes me scratch my head when people say him being her father just "makes sense", whatever that means.

    WW is a subversion of the myths and making Zeus her biological father is a re-subversion of that. It created a paradigm shift that makes her mythos subordinate to the myths they were originally designed to subvert.

    It not only includes more male voices in a narrative that was once predominantly feminine, but it changes character and group dynamics as well as motivations.

    With Zeus as her dad, instead of focusing on the POV from Diana's perspective, I feel like writers on the WW comic focus more on writing around her because of that fact, and there have been casualties because of that.

    I first came to know Wonder Woman as a child molded from clay brought to life by the gods. Turning that out to be a lie completely nullifies that and does not leave it in tact at all.

    I am familiar with a Wonder Woman who used to call on Hera, one of her patron goddesses for help in times of distress. But in order for Zeus to be her dad, they have to throw Hippolyta under the bus with shots to her character. Rather than Hippolyta forbidding her daughter to earn the right to be WW, and Diana participating in an act of defiance, Hippolyta had to shield her daughter from Hera, to save her from her wrath which which has quite a reputation.

    So, on one hand, Hippopyta lies to both Diana and Hera in order to not only protect her daughter from her, she also does it to cover her own behind. On the other hand, you have a Hippolyta who is just overly protective of her daughter who worries about her daughter experiencing a brave new world, as any good mother would do.

    This daddy trope they've got also opens the floodgates for new relatives to take time and focus away from Diana in her own comic. Characters like Jason and Grail are clearly pet characters that some writers may not even well care enough about, but they are forced to write them and around Diana because said person thought they'd be good ideas.

    Well, time will tell...but tired tropes like that, as far as they've been executed so far, get no applause from me.
    Excellent post, Amazon Swordsman. I put my favorite part in bold.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Evidence points towards there being bugs.
    And that's not counting all the sikver age stories where some wizard type turned her back into clay.

    Wow, I'd forgotten all about that. And I was probably furious the first time I saw it.

    I think one thing that really bugs me about the golem issue is humans born from clay is a common recurring thing in many mythologies--including Greek.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_of_man_from_clay

    Writers who suggest Diana is/was a golem either don't know mythology or don't understand what a golem is.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Writers who suggest Diana is/was a golem either don't know mythology or don't understand what a golem is.
    Or don't care to put that much thought in to it? Writers (seem) to often write, largely, for the drama of the story. And, that approach certainly has merit; but, it can, also, come with flaws.

    Take Marvel (comics)'s Civil War for example. The big complaint from many was that many characters seemed to be acting out of their character. But, the story needed them to do these seemingly (/arguably) out of character things in order to build the drama of the story itself.

    For some, the idea of Diana being "born" via clay didn't resonate. For some writers, I feel like they couldn't see how that would create stories. But, here, I would argue that Diana's birth doesn't need to be the source of her stories - she can find stories, in any number of places, simply by going forward. After all, Diana's birth is more of Hippolyta's story anyway.

  15. #75
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Hopefully you're making some snickerdoodles!
    I am, indeed! They're my favorite

    However, I am now done baking, which means this is the last warning, folks.

    1. If I delete a post? That's no cause to go re-posting it, especially when it contains things I've already edited

    2. If you don't want to respond to someone's post, don't respond. Please don't post an announcement that you're going to stop responding as it is antagonistic and against the rules.

    3. If someone does something out of line, don't respond. Please use the report feature located in the bottom left corner of every post.
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