Demon Cyborg Genos vs Black Leg Sanji

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I assume one of them kicks the other.

No one profits.

[Lord Falcon]

Being fast enough to surprise sonic is definitely a good feat, and I don't think there's a question that Genos will be able to *track* Sanji. Genos did deal with Awakened Cockroach after all.

[Dark Soul # 7]

So... is the question whether Genos can keep away with his ranged attacks long enough for it to matter or not?

[Sol_M]

So... is the question whether Genos can keep away with his ranged attacks long enough for it to matter or not?

Yes, Sanji's ability to fly complicates things slightly, but he'd still need to come in close to actually hit Genos.

He also has ridiculous soak, so I don't know for sure if Genos can actually kill him with the casual, untransformed and uncharged attacks that he can actually spam before Sanji closes the gap.

That being said, Genos has massive AoE, and is pretty fast himself. And his attacks are nothing to sneeze at:



In case anyone needed a refresher.

Sanji still has better stats overall though, so if he can close the gap without dying, he can probably turn Genos into scrap metal in short order.

[Lord Falcon]

Genos's ranged attacks are really, really strong, but have been dodged by people slower than Sanji. My money's on Sanji.

[Morning]

I'm actually leaning toward Genos here. He's not as nimble as Sanji, but he's not completely outclassed in speed, particularly in hth. I'm thinking specifically of his latest fight against Garou.

Shortly before encountering Genos, Garou managed to stand still in front of a minigun gun (the user of which was using a special technique call "Death Shower" to greatly increase it's firing rate) and parry every single bullet barehanded around the shack behind him. In their hth contest, the speed of Garou and Genos are equal, which each dodging and landing shots on the other.

That, plus Genos's considerable AOE and utterly massive blasts strikes me as enough to keep enough distance to wear down a Sanji whose upper limits we really haven't seen yet post-timeskip.


For ref, Gaoru vs minigun https://i.imgur.com/La7budE.png https://tinyurl.com/yb4mqzk2
Gaoru vs Genos https://tinyurl.com/y8kxyhru https://tinyurl.com/ybrey8y9

[Lord Falcon]

Garou went all out to block those minigun shots because of the child in the building behind him, and came away with bloody hands. He was forced into expending a large amount of energy to do that. Plus, he was in a constant state of getting weaker thanks to aggravating prior injuries, new injuries, continual blood loss, poison and plain fatigue. Garou specifically noted that he was incredibly dehydrated, his vision was dying and his legs were too. That he could keep up with Genos for any length of time speaks a lot more about Garou than it does about Genos as far as stats and fighting skill goes.

The plus points for Genos from the Garou fight, imo, are his analysis skills of Garou's strategy and the proper use of his tools to corner Garou each time. Genos was always in control of their fight and lured Garou into attacking supposed weak points at least twice.

[Morning]

Plus, he was in a constant state of getting weaker thanks to aggravating prior injuries, new injuries, continual blood loss, poison and plain fatigue. Garou specifically noted that he was incredibly dehydrated, his vision was dying and his legs were too.

Okay, I get why you might want a asterisk there. But here's the thing: the entire narrative thrust of Gaoru's arc is that he gets stronger by breaking through his limits with no rest. So even though he's ostensibly getting more wounded and tired, he's also constantly leveling up. OPM is very explicit that this is what's happening. He's much stronger, faster and better by the time he's injured than he ever was when he was rested, and he has both the feats and the narration to show it.

So for me, Gaoru looks as good in that first exhange against Genos as he does against the minigun right before it. And getting tagged by Genos isn't a case of "I'm too tired to dodge his slow attacks," it's "Wow, this Genos guy is really fast."

[Morning]

For example, despite how beat up he's supposed to be, Gaoru manages to twice react to Genos' energy blast at close range after it's been fired. He then gets jumped by Bang and the other guy and takes his most savage, one-sided beating of the fight. He's talks about how he's blacking out, how he can't move his arms, how he's going to die, et cetera. Then he has another flashback to spur him on and does this: https://tinyurl.com/yclq79k8

Keep in mind that OPM is a pastiche of common tropes. Gaoru is the pastiche of the "manga guy who gets beaten half to death but emotions and determination make him stronger mid-fight anyway" trope.

[Lord Falcon]

Okay, I get why you might want a asterisk there. But here's the thing: the entire narrative thrust of Gaoru's arc is that he gets stronger by breaking through his limits with no rest. So even though he's ostensibly getting more wounded and tired, he's also constantly leveling up. OPM is very explicit that this is what's happening. He's much stronger, faster and better by the time he's injured than he ever was when he was rested, and he has both the feats and the narration to show it.

So for me, Gaoru looks as good in that first exhange against Genos as he does against the minigun right before it. And getting tagged by Genos isn't a case of "I'm too tired to dodge his slow attacks," it's "Wow, this Genos guy is really fast."

This would be true for the majority of Garou's run, but by the time he fights the cadre of A-class heroes, he's hit the upper limit of getting better without proper rest. Garou at full strength would have mopped the floor with each and every one of that group.

Genos is by no means slow. But he's going into hth against a martial arts genius with the stats to back it up. Before Garou started copying Watchdog Man's style, Genos actually had an edge in speed over Garou, countered and outweighed by Garou's vastly superior skill (which was again countered and outweighed by Genos's vast firepower and detachable limbs).

[Morning]

This would be true for the majority of Garou's run, but by the time he fights the cadre of A-class heroes, he's hit the upper limit of getting better without proper rest. Garou at full strength would have mopped the floor with each and every one of that group.

Alright... I'm just sitting around with nothing to do today so let's take the time to break this down:

TL: DR Looking at this series of events, I can't possibly agree that he reached his without-rest peak before the battle and is only getting weakerthroughout. That is the exact opposite of what the manga shows overall, which features new best-feats and two clear "emotional power-up" type moments.


Gaoru starts the fight against the A and B team still weakened from his previous fights. After fighting for a while, it seems like his fatigue is hampering him as he takes two poison arrows to the back and a bullet in the leg. If you're assuming accumulated damage should put an asterisk on performances against him, you'd expect him to get weaker from this point. In fact, that's what the heroes think.

https://tinyurl.com/y8t4qyjg

He gets better, actually.

But first he has a flashback to his childhood. Such flashbacks have happened before, always signaling that Gaoru has broken through his previous limit and reached the next level.

He then laughingly owns most of the same guys who previously wounded him, taking no further damage and prompting this totally rational question in an irrational world.

https://tinyurl.com/ycmt97yn

Gaoru then laughingly owns the rest of the team, which I can only think to describe as what happens when you switch a video game from a high difficulty level to a lower one when you're losing mid-level. Among other impressive feats, he performs the aforementioned mini-gun parry (by far his best speed feat), even surprising himself.

There is no sign that his bloody hands bother him, or that he expended a "large amount of energy" doing it, as you claimed. So there's no reason to assume he was significantly slower when failing to dodge Genos's combo a minute later. Genos was just that fast.

NOTE: The second flashback-powerup came after taking his much, MUCH more damage yet at the hands of Bang and Bomb, the result of which also showed him then disregarding that damage and astonishing these even more powerful opponents with his newfound strength. I posted a scan of that outcome earlier.

[Lord Falcon]

Alright... I'm just sitting around with nothing to do today so let's take the time to break this down:

TL: DR Looking at this series of events, I can't possibly agree that he reached his without-rest peak before the battle and is only getting weakerthroughout. That is the exact opposite of what the manga shows overall, which features new best-feats and two clear "emotional power-up" type moments.


Gaoru starts the fight against the A and B team still weakened from his previous fights. After fighting for a while, it seems like his fatigue is hampering him as he takes two poison arrows to the back and a bullet in the leg. If you're assuming accumulated damage should put an asterisk on performances against him, you'd expect him to get weaker from this point. In fact, that's what the heroes think.

https://tinyurl.com/y8t4qyjg

He gets better, actually.

But first he has a flashback to his childhood. Such flashbacks have happened before, always signaling that Gaoru has broken through his previous limit and reached the next level.

He then laughingly owns most of the same guys who previously wounded him, taking no further damage and prompting this totally rational question in an irrational world.

https://tinyurl.com/ycmt97yn

Gaoru then laughingly owns the rest of the team, which I can only think to describe as what happens when you switch a video game from a high difficulty level to a lower one when you're losing mid-level. Among other impressive feats, he performs the aforementioned mini-gun parry (by far his best speed feat), even surprising himself.

There is no sign that his bloody hands bother him, or that he expended a "large amount of energy" doing it, as you claimed. So there's no reason to assume he was significantly slower when failing to dodge Genos's combo a minute later. Genos was just that fast.

NOTE: The second flashback-powerup came after taking his much, MUCH more damage yet at the hands of Bang and Bomb, the result of which also showed him then disregarding that damage and astonishing these even more powerful opponents with his newfound strength. I posted a scan of that outcome earlier.

Perhaps I'm not being clear. Garou's power curve is more like a squiggly line than a smooth one. He gets more powerful by pushing himself to his limits, much like a Saiyan would. But unlike a Saiyan, Garou doesn't get a super mode to bail himself out of the horrible condition his body is in - he merely gets increases in fighting prowess. There is plenty of evidence he's expended a large amount of energy beating the heroes and the minigun attack. His own thoughts show how he's being hampered, his body giving out on him. And yes, I read the same chapter you did this week with his tree feat. And what did Garou do right after? He passed out and couldn't even shake himself free of a bird monster far his inferior. Garou gets powerups, but those power ups of fighting spirit and skill only go so far in a crumbling body. That squiggly line keeps giving him power boosts, but the overall trend was going downwards towards the end.

Which brings it back full circle to Genos fighting a vastly weakened and injured, if also much more skilled than he used to be, Garou.

Otherwise, we'd be saying that the dehydrated, poisoned, injured, about the pass out Garou that Genos fought would beat the Garou who beat Tanktop Master and Metal Bat.

[Morning]

Perhaps I'm not being clear. Garou's power curve is more like a squiggly line than a smooth one. He gets more powerful by pushing himself to his limits, much like a Saiyan would. But unlike a Saiyan, Garou doesn't get a super mode to bail himself out of the horrible condition his body is in - he merely gets increases in fighting prowess. There is plenty of evidence he's expended a large amount of energy beating the heroes and the minigun attack. His own thoughts show how he's being hampered, his body giving out on him.

There are two times he takes a lot of damage in this fight (after his first round against the A/B Team and after getting wrecked by Bang and Bomb). After each, he has a flashback, just like he always does before a powerup. After each, he immediately performs better against the same opponents than he had before taking that damage.

Sure, that doesn't mean that the damage has literally gone away. But it does demonstrate by feats that his performance is still improving. The fact that he narrates about how bad of shape he's in doesn't change the fact that he is plainly performing better, despite the damage. That's what matters here.

And what did Garou do right after? He passed out and couldn't even shake himself free of a bird monster far his inferior.

Couple of things. One, have we seen the bird monster before to know how strong it is? All I saw of it feat-wise was that it knocked down Gaoru, Bang and Bomb with a flap of its wings. Two, Gaoru didn't pass out right away, he passed out eventually, having been out of combat for a while. As discussed, Gaoru works by breaking his limits in combat--outside of combat his wear and tear catches up with him. That's why he thought he would need to rest for several days before the fight. He ended up needing zero rest to defeat the A/B team, stalemate Genos and surprisingly survive against Bang and Bomb, all of which constitues a better showing than any that preceded it.

]Which brings it back full circle to Genos fighting a vastly weakened and injured, if also much more skilled than he used to be, Garou.

Genos fought Gaoru just a couple of minutes after Gaoru performed the minigun feat. Gaoru never says that the feat took a lot out of him, nor does he take any significant new damage during it, nor does he mention that his injuries are getting worse in the interim. Regardless of what you think about his overall power-curve (which i agree is a squiggly line), at the very least Gaoru is in the same shape against Genos as he is against the minigun.

Otherwise, we'd be saying that the dehydrated, poisoned, injured, about the pass out Garou that Genos fought would beat the Garou who beat Tanktop Master and Metal Bat.

I mean... I am saying that. By feats, he is much faster and much more durable during this injured fight than he was during the earlier rested ones. That is perfectly consistent with his presentation as a guy who's entire character arc is that he rapidly gets stronger and stronger the more he is pushed by strong opponents.

[Lord Falcon]

There are two times he takes a lot of damage in this fight (after his first round against the A/B Team and after getting wrecked by Bang and Bomb). After each, he has a flashback, just like he always does before a powerup. After each, he immediately performs better against the same opponents than he had before taking that damage.

Sure, that doesn't mean that the damage has literally gone away. But it does demonstrate by feats that his performance is still improving. The fact that he narrates about how bad of shape he's in doesn't change the fact that he is plainly performing better, despite the damage. That's what matters here.



Couple of things. One, have we seen the bird monster before to know how strong it is? All I saw of it feat-wise was that it knocked down Gaoru, Bang and Bomb with a flap of its wings. Two, Gaoru didn't pass out right away, he passed out eventually, having been out of combat for a while. As discussed, Gaoru works by breaking his limits in combat--outside of combat his wear and tear catches up with him. That's why he thought he would need to rest for several days before the fight. He ended up needing zero rest to defeat the A/B team, stalemate Genos and surprisingly survive against Bang and Bomb, all of which constitues a better showing than any that preceded it.



Genos fought Gaoru just a couple of minutes after Gaoru performed the minigun feat. Gaoru never says that the feat took a lot out of him, nor does he take any significant new damage during it, nor does he mention that his injuries are getting worse in the interim. Regardless of what you think about his overall power-curve (which i agree is a squiggly line), at the very least Gaoru is in the same shape against Genos as he is against the minigun.



I mean... I am saying that. By feats, he is much faster and much more durable during this injured fight than he was during the earlier rested ones. That is perfectly consistent with his presentation as a guy who's entire character arc is that he rapidly gets stronger and stronger the more he is pushed by strong opponents.

And I'm saying his feats against the A-Team and Genos are weaker than his feats against Tank Top Master, Metal Bat and all the other strong heroes he beat with much less effort. Really, I get your point on strong power spikes. But it doesn't change the fact that Garou is on a downward trend in terms of ability as his injuries get worse than his power spikes can compensate for. Again, squiggly line, downward trend.

Demanding that each and every single feat he performs be accompanied by an explicit statement is baseless. You see Garou's bleeding hands, you see him dehydrated and staggering the moment the fight stops, again thinking about needing to treat his wounds. His vision starts to black out on its own despite not taking any hits, and his legs are dead. Hell, the very fact that Genos is able to go toe to toe with Garou where Metal Bat got dominated and suffer next to no damage from getting nailed in the head with a kick shows how far gone Garou was by that point.