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  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Homecoming wouldn't be half as good without that god-tier twist, and Joker makes a personal connection by targeting and ruining Batman's friends. Like Sandman, but good. If you do it right, it makes for more engaging conflicts.
    By personal connection I mean connection to Bruce Wayne directly...i.e. knowing the secret identity and so on. The villain hurting someone the hero cares about is tangential to that. Having everyone Spider-Man comes across knowing both Peter and Spider-Man and so on makes Peter less friendly neighborhood and more guy whom stuff revolves around. It also makes all stories same-y. Like it's like audiences are primed to know okay this is the moment where the villain knows the hero and so on. It becomes ridiculous and basically in the movies Peter should go public.

    I mean Into the Spider-Verse has Miles Morales fighting Kingpin, and Kingpin not knowing his secret identity and so on. Kingpin still hurt people Miles cared about but it wasn't out of some personal connection...so that's a way to do it right. ITSV got that right in a way the other movies didn't.

  2. #452
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Richard Donner's Superman the first one...Lex Luthor by Hackman had no personal connection to Superman there. Likewise Penguin had no connection to Batman in Batman Returns, nor Joker in The Dark Knight.

    In Homecoming, Adrian Toomes Vulture had no connection to Peter and Spider-Man until Peter goes to pick up Liz's house. Great scene well done and so on but it's not really necessary since Vulture pre-existed Spider-Man and would have continued with or without him.
    Sometimes you shouldn't make a decision JUST because the comics did it different or "heroes shouldn't have a connection to the villain". If it fits the story, go for it, the Vulture twist is probably the best thing about that film, it is genuinely surprising, leads to an incredibly tense scene, helps to humanize Toomes a bit more, and directly leads to the most important "great power comes great responsibility" part in the film.

  3. #453
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    When you only have a handful of blockbuster movies and you need a new villain for each one, making a personal connection is a good way to raise stakes and significance. Sandman just didn't work because it was too contrived. Electro suffered because you could practically remove him from that mess and just lose action scenes. Mysterio is going to build a personal relationship too, during the movie when they're partners or whever.
    I wonder if they'll throw Mysterio in The Raft once he's defeated...

    I don't think they can throw him in general prison like with Vulture and Scorpion if he ends up knowing Peter's identity. I don't think he'll respect Spidey enough to not blab it out to other criminals.

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Sometimes you shouldn't make a decision JUST because the comics did it different or "heroes shouldn't have a connection to the villain". If it fits the story, go for it, the Vulture twist is probably the best thing about that film, it is genuinely surprising, leads to an incredibly tense scene, helps to humanize Toomes a bit more, and directly leads to the most important "great power comes great responsibility" part in the film.
    You mean "If you're nothing without the suit"...that line honestly makes no sense. Peter Parker has Spider powers. He will always be something without a suit, or any suit. That's his entire problem. He has great powers, so he will always have great responsibilities. Audiences know this because they have seen earlier Spider-Man movies where he was fine and dandy without a suit and gadgets. I mean that's a good example of awkwardly fitting something from Tony Stark's wheelhouse into Spider-Man and it not working. I am okay with downplaying the Uncle Ben Gospel and so on...you can do Spider-Man without that. The first 290 issues never once attributed it to Uncle Ben until Owsley's Spider-Man V. Wolverine.

    In the case of Homecoming...Toomes being Liz Allan's Dad and so on. That was fine, but he didn't have to learn or figure out Peter's identity and then threaten Peter's family and so on. I mean if I hear one more Spider-Man bad guy go on about "kill the ones you love" and so on, I just switch off. We all know that and so on, you don't have to keep repeating it. I mean why can't Peter Parker make the moral choice of choosing to do Superhero work, stopping the Vulture despite knowing that it's going to cost him a relationship that means a lot to him. Peter Parker made those choices all the time in the comics, lived with them, accepted the consequences and so on.

  5. #455
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You mean "If you're nothing without the suit"...that line honestly makes no sense. Peter Parker has Spider powers. He will always be something without a suit, or any suit. That's his entire problem. He has great powers, so he will always have great responsibilities. Audiences know this because they have seen earlier Spider-Man movies where he was fine and dandy without a suit and gadgets. I mean that's a good example of awkwardly fitting something from Tony Stark's wheelhouse into Spider-Man and it not working. I am okay with downplaying the Uncle Ben Gospel and so on...you can do Spider-Man without that. The first 290 issues never once attributed it to Uncle Ben until Owsley's Spider-Man V. Wolverine.

    In the case of Homecoming...Toomes being Liz Allan's Dad and so on. That was fine, but he didn't have to learn or figure out Peter's identity and then threaten Peter's family and so on. I mean if I hear one more Spider-Man bad guy go on about "kill the ones you love" and so on, I just switch off. We all know that and so on, you don't have to keep repeating it. I mean why can't Peter Parker make the moral choice of choosing to do Superhero work, stopping the Vulture despite knowing that it's going to cost him a relationship that means a lot to him. Peter Parker made those choices all the time in the comics, lived with them, accepted the consequences and so on.
    No, I'm talking about the scene when he ditches Liz at the Homecoming dance to go fight her dad. It's important because it represents Peter giving up what he wants to do in order to do the dangerous but responsible thing. The movie is called "Homecoming", and its built up in the movie a fair bit, so to leave it pretty much immediately, and ditch the girl he likes to make sure the bad guy doesn't get away and people don't get hurt. That IS Spider-Man.

    And Peter is LITERALLY making the moral choice all the time. If Toomes hadn't of said anything about his plan, Peter probably wouldn't of come after him at that moment. The "kill your love ones" speech isn't for Peter's sake, it's for Toomes character, to show how dark down a path he's gone that he's threatening a high schooler like this, while playing the Walter White role. Peter's need to do the right thing no matter what is what leads him to make the decision to go after him, and eventually even gaining Toomes' respect after saving his life.

    It is arguable Toomes is just as important to the story as Peter is, the film starts with him, he was probably the most sympathetic or understandable MCU villain until Killmonger, and Michael Keaton is completely phenomenal.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    It is arguable Toomes is just as important to the story as Peter is, the film starts with him, he was probably the most sympathetic or understandable MCU villain until Killmonger, and Michael Keaton is completely phenomenal.
    Yeah, I was totally rooting for the Vulture in the movie. The first time I actually wanted the villain to get away with it against Spidey. I mean yeah he's bad and so-and-so but the fact that this guy was a law-abiding citizen all his life, and worked legally and somehow saw all that taken away from him was compelling. He definitely should be the big arc villain for the High School Trilogy. And the best part I like about Keaton's Vulture that guy has sympathetic motivations but he has no remorse, no regrets, or doubts about his actions. To him the world made him that way, and he did what he had to do, and while you can sympathize with that, the fact that this guy doesn't have any personal regrets or doubts makes him a little scary and self-righteous. Which makes him an excellent antagonist.

    I generally don't think a villain needs to be sympathetic to be compelling, like the best superhero villain was Joker in The Dark Knight and he definitely wasn't sympathetic. He was entertaining, and I think adding sympathetic traits kind of ruins some characters...Dr. Octopus in Spider-Man 2 and Sandman, Electro, in their movies. I am glad Raimi avoided making Eddie Brock Venom sympathetic but then he hated that character so...Curt Connors/Lizard was originally the only really sympathetic villain among Spider-Man's ranks and it worked with him but doing that to everyone ruins Spider-Man's story and many villains especially if it doesn't fit well. I mean Kraven's backstory and motivations aren't sympathetic. His best story KLH made it clear that this guy has nothing good about him and still made him work. So that can be done.

    Keaton's Vulture is basically Sandman done right. You know the whole "I have a family...I have a daughter" sob story is there with him, but Keaton's Vulture is just amoral and a family man rather than Sandman who's just this pathetic sad-sack and who seems to be more worried about being denied spousal rights than about killing a man...which makes the ending of that totally unbelievable. Spider-Man isn't a monk, he ain't Jesus and he isn't about pardoning his enemies. He's about responsibility. He takes his, and he holds others accountable to theirs.

  7. #457

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    Flash to Peter:
    U.S Trailer: "What's up dickwad?"
    International Trailer: "What's up loser?"


    Why do they change words like that? Do they change them for actual film releases like how one version of Demolition Man has Pizza Hut while another has Taco Bell?
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  8. #458
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    Flash to Peter:
    U.S Trailer: "What's up dickwad?"
    International Trailer: "What's up loser?"


    Why do they change words like that? Do they change them for actual film releases like how one version of Demolition Man has Pizza Hut while another has Taco Bell?
    To avoid censorship, most likely.

  9. #459
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post

    I don't think those guys will be any more than third-stringers at best.

    For all we know, given Mysterio's involvement, they could be elaborate FX creations and not "real" at all.
    Like I said in another post though, that'd be a bit waste of potential marquee villains like Sandman, Hydro-Man and Molten Man - if that's who they're meant to be. They could be the comic book 'Elementals', who are far more disposable relative nobodies, but there's easter eggs in the trailer (such as a boat in one scene saying ASM 212, the debut of Hydro-Man) that are pointing to them supposedly being the classic villains in some form.
    Last edited by Zeitgeist; 01-15-2019 at 11:52 PM.
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  10. #460
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    The trailer looks cool to me.
    I even watched it more that once (And me watching a trailer more that one time is not usual) to try to see if i could find any of the easter eggs.Which i did not.But whatever.
    I think Mysterio as a hero is similiar to Mysterio first story in ASM.He pretented to be a hero as well in his original story.
    And i am intrigued to know more about those elementals creatures,hoping that they are not Sandman and Hydro Man though,because it would be disapointing that those two villains were just some two generic giant elemental creatures.
    Spider-Man flying (or is it gliding?) and the Black Stealth costume that he have is intriguing.
    Aunt May knowing Peter Parker identity (And Ned Leeds) is what i disliked the most.Hoping that this movie will have Spider-Man with the Spider Sense.That is such a iconic part of the Spider-Man stories to not be in the movies.

  11. #461
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    To avoid censorship, most likely.
    Could also be a language barrier thing is Dickwad a term used beyond North America?

  12. #462

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Like I said in another post though, that'd be a bit waste of potential marquee villains like Sandman, Hydro-Man and Molten Man - if that's who they're meant to be. They could be the comic book 'Elementals', who are far more disposable relative nobodies, but there's easter eggs in the trailer (such as a boat in one scene saying ASM 212, the debut of Hydro-Man) that are pointing to them supposedly being the classic villains in some form.
    Other than Sandman none of them are marquee, and we already saw Sandman in the Raimi trilogy and MCU Spidey is all about avoiding repeats...

  13. #463
    Astonishing Member FluffySheep's Avatar
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    This might sound stupid, but there seemed to be a slight emphasis on Peter buying toothpaste/toothbrush in the shop, then Aunt May mentioning toothpaste to him, and then Nick Fury shows up while Peter's brushing his teeth. Mysterio drugging with him toothpaste? Or have I thought about this far too much? lol.
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  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffySheep View Post
    This might sound stupid, but there seemed to be a slight emphasis on Peter buying toothpaste/toothbrush in the shop, then Aunt May mentioning toothpaste to him, and then Nick Fury shows up while Peter's brushing his teeth. Mysterio drugging with him toothpaste? Or have I thought about this far too much? lol.
    Green Goblin did drug Peter with toothpaste in Revenge of the Green Goblin so it can happen. And Mysterio could be a good substitute for certain aspects of the Green Goblin.

    The whole shtick of posing as a hero and ally and so on...Green Goblin did that in his very first comic appearance in ASM #14 where Goblin said that he was going to help Spider-Man get rich and famous and offers to get him to California (which I think is the first major comic to have Peter leave New York) and then he ambushes him with the Enforcers and an unexpected assist from the Incredible Hulk (still untamed and anti-heroic way back then).

    One thing I loved about that toothpaste thing...I did the same thing. I was commuting through trains, forgot to pack my haberdashery and so I bought the same toothpaste kit that Peter did from a kiosk.

  15. #465
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Probalus View Post
    Other than Sandman none of them are marquee, and we already saw Sandman in the Raimi trilogy and MCU Spidey is all about avoiding repeats...
    Molten Man may not be a headline name but with Liz Allen already in the universe, they could do a lot more with the character than have him be a throwaway. As for Sandman, they've shown via Aunt May and MJ that you can use a character that's already appeared prominently in one or even two different film incarnations and still do something different.
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