Are Jean Grey and Dark Phoenix two different characters?

[remydat]

I view Jean/PF/Maddie as different entities.

Jean had a life independent of the PF manifesting. Likewise the PF had a life independent of Jean. These two independent lives merged in some sense but that merged entity is still separate and distinct from the 2 entities that existed before the merger because the combination of Jean and PF results in a commingling of their separate experiences in a way that creates a new consciousness or mentality.

Likewise, while Maddy may have Jean's memories and elements of the PF, she also has memories from Sinister that neither Jean or the PF had. Those memories along with her experiences are unique to her and ultimately help her make decisions and create a life that is separate from both Jean and PF.

In short, while all 3 may share the same template initially, the way that template interacts with the world and the other disparate elements of each individual results in each incarnation of PF/Jean/Maddy being distinctly different from the other.

[Ulfhammer]

I view Jean/PF/Maddie as different entities.

Jean had a life independent of the PF manifesting. Likewise the PF had a life independent of Jean. These two independent lives merged in some sense but that merged entity is still separate and distinct from the 2 entities that existed before the merger because the combination of Jean and PF results in a commingling of their separate experiences in a way that creates a new consciousness or mentality.

Likewise, while Maddy may have Jean's memories and elements of the PF, she also has memories from Sinister that neither Jean or the PF had. Those memories along with her experiences are unique to her and ultimately help her make decisions and create a life that is separate from both Jean and PF.

In short, while all 3 may share the same template initially, the way that template interacts with the world and the other disparate elements of each individual results in each incarnation of PF/Jean/Maddy being distinctly different from the other.

I think it's difficult to say that Maddie was practically able to break away from Jean's life patterns in any meaningful way. She was drawn to Scott and married him. She spent time as a legitimate superhero of her own (Anodyne) and eventually developed into a nearly full fledge X-Man during the Outback period. She was accepted almost immediately and willingly by the X-Men. She was tempted with a great deal of power and fell into a similar trap as Phoenix when it came to her being corrupted, although she wasn't ultimately able to show the same strength of character as Jean\Phoenix. I chalk that down to her being a clone of Jean instead of the perfect replicant that the PF fashioned.

The question is, if your memories are altered, are you still you or did you just become someone else? Does it depend on how much of your memories are altered or just specific key events?

These questions are important to Maddie definitely as she clearly has altered memories from Jean. Phoenix though did not. From the moment of her inception she shared everything that Jean was. As for Maddie, she couldn't have existed without Jean and her first moments of life were Phoenix's last. There's a certain continuity of spirit and experience from Jean to Phoenix than from Phoenix to Maddie and finally from Maddie back to Jean. What's clear is that Jean's essense was core to both Phoenix and Maddie, hence both sets of memories and experiences eventually return to Jean by the end of Inferno. The circle is now complete as they say.

[PhoenixStudies]

You know, even with the retcon, Jean's relationship to the Phoenix Force is special and unique.

All the other hosts may have become the Phoenix, but the Phoenix did not become them. Only Jean has become the Phoenix and the Phoenix has become Jean. Through Jean the circle is complete.

I just wish Marvel had left Jean as the only White Phoenix. It should have been indicative of her unique status with the Phoenix Force. I will never fully forgive Marvel for having Hope appear as the White Phoenix. I just wish they would establish that she was merely mimicking Jean.

[rutog98]

The retcon in Fantastic Four # 286 was undone in AvX. Jean and the Phoenix were the same.

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This did not undo the Fantastic Four story. The PF had created a clone of Jean's body and everything right down to her personality and memories. So, it behaved exactly as Jean would have and everything. That said, when the Phoenix Five were possessed by the Phoenix Force in AvX, they were not possessed by Jean Grey, but by the Phoenix Entity itself. Those are two separate beings.

[PhoenixStudies]

This did not undo the Fantastic Four story. The PF had created a clone of Jean's body and everything right down to her personality and memories. So, it behaved exactly as Jean would have and everything. That said, when the Phoenix Five were possessed by the Phoenix Force in AvX, they were not possessed by Jean Grey, but by the Phoenix Entity itself. Those are two separate beings.

Jean was in there as she appeared to Cyclops at least three times. Once as a fiery specter, another as a voice on the other side of a cosmic White Wall, and another time as moon dust.

Even Brevoort admitted at the time on formspring that Jean was within the infinite essence of the Phoenix Force.

This thread isn't about whether Jean and the Phoenix Force are the same or separate entity, but whether Jean and the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix characters are the same or not.

To me, based on the original story, and the Classic X-Men 8 and 43 as well as Inferno reinterpretation of FF 286, they are essentially the same character. Morrison's run furthers this with the Phoenix Egg interpretation and the replacements just being her becoming consumed with the Phoenix consciousness. Endsong also had all those "always Jean, always Phoenix", "I am you, don't you remember" and "you and I are one" comments. Avengers v. X-Men, Trial of Jean Grey, End of Greys, and Generations Phoenix all refer to the real Jean as having been Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

[Ulfhammer]

This did not undo the Fantastic Four story. The PF had created a clone of Jean's body and everything right down to her personality and memories. So, it behaved exactly as Jean would have and everything. That said, when the Phoenix Five were possessed by the Phoenix Force in AvX, they were not possessed by Jean Grey, but by the Phoenix Entity itself. Those are two separate beings.

I'd argue that there is a fundamental difference between the Phoenix Force, and the Phoenix character that appeared in the DPS. All the other hosts were posessed by the PF, but in Jean's case the PF actually became her. So yes Jean and the PF are two clearly different entities, but Jean and the Phoenix are not, for all practical purposes. I think we can all agree that Jean's case was unique as far as how the PF decided to approach possession. In many ways it was the reverse of the usual, where the PF slowly overcomes an established personality. In Jean's case, the PF decided to allow it's personality to be overcome by Jean's.

[Ulfhammer]

You know, even with the retcon, Jean's relationship to the Phoenix Force is special and unique.

All the other hosts may have become the Phoenix, but the Phoenix did not become them. Only Jean has become the Phoenix and the Phoenix has become Jean. Through Jean the circle is complete.

I just wish Marvel had left Jean as the only White Phoenix. It should have been indicative of her unique status with the Phoenix Force. I will never fully forgive Marvel for having Hope appear as the White Phoenix. I just wish they would establish that she was merely mimicking Jean.

Agreed on all counts. I just pretend that didn't happen and hopefully it will never be referenced again in continuity.

[remydat]

I think it's difficult to say that Maddie was practically able to break away from Jean's life patterns in any meaningful way. She was drawn to Scott and married him. She spent time as a legitimate superhero of her own (Anodyne) and eventually developed into a nearly full fledge X-Man during the Outback period. She was accepted almost immediately and willingly by the X-Men. She was tempted with a great deal of power and fell into a similar trap as Phoenix when it came to her being corrupted, although she wasn't ultimately able to show the same strength of character as Jean\Phoenix. I chalk that down to her being a clone of Jean instead of the perfect replicant that the PF fashioned.

The question is, if your memories are altered, are you still you or did you just become someone else? Does it depend on how much of your memories are altered or just specific key events?

These questions are important to Maddie definitely as she clearly has altered memories from Jean. Phoenix though did not. From the moment of her inception she shared everything that Jean was. As for Maddie, she couldn't have existed without Jean and her first moments of life were Phoenix's last. There's a certain continuity of spirit and experience from Jean to Phoenix than from Phoenix to Maddie and finally from Maddie back to Jean. What's clear is that Jean's essense was core to both Phoenix and Maddie, hence both sets of memories and experiences eventually return to Jean by the end of Inferno. The circle is now complete as they say.

She still had experiences that Jean never had. She may have followed in Jean's footsteps but it was still her and not Jean that had those experiences.

As for Phoenix, again Jean didnt experience all the things Phoenix did because a Jean was in the coccoon. So Phoenix may have had Jeans memories but she was different from Jean because she had experiences that Jean never did.

[CuteClops]

This did not undo the Fantastic Four story. The PF had created a clone of Jean's body and everything right down to her personality and memories. So, it behaved exactly as Jean would have and everything. That said, when the Phoenix Five were possessed by the Phoenix Force in AvX, they were not possessed by Jean Grey, but by the Phoenix Entity itself. Those are two separate beings.

It is exactly that fact: that retcon has been changed. It was not a clone, it was Jean.

By the way, that 'clone' stuff... sigh... that was just stupid. Well, okay, it was at a time when heroes should be perfect.

But experience over the past two decades has shown that, in the MU, heroes are "human". I mean, even the heroes make mistakes. Super-heroes which claiming to fight crime, commit acts of fascism and murder.

Many heroes have committed criminal acts, genocides, murder... some of them do it because they're under control of some force, such as the Phoenix Force, Apocalypse and so on. And some of them do it because they actually think they're making things better.
That's it.

[Mike_Murdock]

It is exactly that fact: that retcon has been changed. It was not a clone, it was Jean.

Where do you see someone saying it wasn't a clone? All I see is they're calling the clone "Jean."

By the way, that 'clone' stuff... sigh... that was just stupid.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it was retconned.

[Conor]

I don't want this post to be too weighty, but in my opinion, Jean & the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix "entity" ARE the same person. I think, ultimately though, there's room for individual-reader interpretation, as in, there's distinct evidence for the X-Factor retcon holding true but there's also evidence (some of which has been posted in this thread) that Jean & Phoenix (circa 1970s) WERE the same individual (for example, during Phoenix Endsong when Jean states to Logan "I'm always Jean & I'm always the Phoenix", when she attacks Emma/the PF towards the end and uses the Phoenix's power without technically having access to the Force)

Personally, I like to think that while the PF DID duplicate Jean's body & stored her original body in the cocoon under Jamaica Bay, it was ultimately a part of Jean Grey's actual essence/psyche/soul that inhabited the duplicate's body. Then, this part of Jean's "essence" (or whatever you'd like to call it) was returned to her at the end of Inferno, after her confrontation with Maddie. I like to believe that it was a combination of the PF's power AND Jean's essence ("What was borrowed has now been returned") that sparked life within Maddie.

[MarvelMaster616]

I was going to stay out of this discussion because I didn't think I had much to contribute. But after reading Jean Grey #10, which I won't spoil, I think it sort of complicated this question.

Over the years, Marvel has been pretty vague about Jean's connection with the Phoenix Force. There are times when they act as separate entities, which was sort of the rule of the day during the X-Factor era. There are times when they're one in the same, like with the Grant Morrison/New X-men era. The movies sort of played off that as well, making Jean and Phoenix different parts of the same mind. Now, in recent years, the Phoenix Force has gained more of a personality. The recent issues of Jean's solo series has expanded on that idea as well. And I have a feeling Phoenix Resurrection will mix things up even more. So this question of their link is probably going to have a different answer by the middle of next year.

[CuteClops]

Where do you see someone saying it wasn't a clone? All I see is they're calling the clone "Jean."



I agree, but that doesn't mean it was retconned.

No, dude, it wasn't a clone, not anymore, it was Jean. It was always Jean.
So, yes, it was retconned.

[Mike_Murdock]

Where do you see that stated?

[Havok83]

No, dude, it wasn't a clone, not anymore, it was Jean. It was always Jean.
So, yes, it was retconned.

It was a clone. Not a clone like Maddie, but her body was cloned when her oriignal was burned on the space flight. Its more like Xavier's body being a clone following the Brood story, except he stayed in his cloned body. The way I view it, a portion of Jean's consciounsess was transferred into the cloned body while her original healed