There's always alot of animosity in the X-Boards...

[MosSuperman]

Idk much about all the Gambit and Rogue drama(I guess they get mad because Gambit keeps trying to get with Rogue and she rejects him?), but, as it was discusssed not that long ago, I always found the notion that Scott got the short end of the stick vs Jean was absurd.

There were some long 8 years or so where she was dead while Scemma was being pushed as the top X-Couple. Writers and editors said that Jean pushed Scott back, that she was replaceable, that Emma "made Scott a man"(wtf), that she was better off dead. Ever since Jean died, Scott was the biggest focus of the franchise until ANAD Marvel. Even if others hated him for killing Xavier, he was still the lead on Uncanny X-Men, who had his own team and other characters(Kitty, the O5) eventually switched sides and decided to support him. And lot of people seem to love how he was written("Rightclop" fans), and it was only for a couple of years, while Jean has been dead for 14. Editorial literally decided to keep her dead so they could push Scott on a different direction. If anything, she was fridged for him.

I thought Jean and Scott fans had arguments because of the cheating thing. It's always about who did worse. People tend to defend their favorite character.

[Ulfhammer]

Idk much about all the Gambit and Rogue drama(I guess they get mad because Gambit keeps trying to get with Rogue and she rejects him?), but, as it was discusssed not that long ago, I always found the notion that Scott got the short end of the stick vs Jean was absurd.

There were some long 8 years or so where she was dead while Scemma was being pushed as the top X-Couple. Writers and editors said that Jean pushed Scott back, that she was replaceable, that Emma "made Scott a man"(wtf), that she was better off dead. Ever since Jean died, Scott was the biggest focus of the franchise until ANAD Marvel. Even if others hated him for killing Xavier, he was still the lead on Uncanny X-Men, who had his own team and other characters(Kitty, the O5) eventually switched sides and decided to support him. And lot of people seem to love how he was written("Rightclop" fans), and it was only for a couple of years, while Jean has been dead for 14. Editorial literally decided to keep her dead so they could push Scott on a different direction. If anything, she was fridged for him.

And now that Scott got fridged for her, I guess we should all feel like this was justified payback?

Editorially speaking Scott been a moral train wreck since the early 80's while Jean's been pretty much a Disney Princess her entire existence. Although opinion is divided on how responsible she is for eating the D'Bari star (which is just about the only really nasty thing she ever did) she still isn't really blamed for it, even by those who know it was Jean in every way that mattered. Marvel has worked hard to ensure her frock stays white, which is okay, but it's not fair to deny this has put Scott on the receiving end of some questionable moral choices as a consequence. I certainly don't blame Jean (or by extension Jean fans) for this. It's the choices Marvel made.

[RLAAMJR.]

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[Wiccan]

And now that Scott got fridged for her, I guess we should all feel like this was justified payback?

Editorially speaking Scott been a moral train wreck since the early 80's while Jean's been pretty much a Disney Princess her entire existence. Although opinion is divided on how responsible she is for eating the D'Bari star (which is just about the only really nasty thing she ever did) she still isn't really blamed for it, even by those who know it was Jean in every way that mattered. Marvel has worked hard to ensure her frock stays white, which is okay, but it's not fair to deny this has put Scott on the receiving end of some questionable moral choices as a consequence. I certainly don't blame Jean (or by extension Jean fans) for this. It's the choices Marvel made.

You're misusing the concept of fridging here. It's about killing a character(usually women) exactly to develop another one(usually their love interest). Scott wasn't fridged for Jean, because his death had absolutely nothing to do with her. Scott died because of the whole IvX mess, and Jean wasn't even a factor on the whole story. Jean though, the reason she was killed and stayed dead was because they wanted him to get with Emma. They made it so she died on his arms telling him to live, and then pushed for Scemma after being reborn on the future. Right after that Scemma were already together again.

But I agree with the rest of what you said, but I don't think Scott being a "moral train wreck" is exactly something bad for his character. It gives him more depth. I mean, the whole Maddie thing was really fucked up, yeah, but when it comes to everything after that, the only thing he did that made me mad was the Emma affair, but that's because I'm a Jean and Jott fan, and I still don't really hate him for it as Emma had a lot of fault on that too(A lot of Emma fans complain about the blame she gets, and, yeah, it was Scott's responsability as a husband to be faithful, but Emma took advantage of him on a vulnerable moment, and the way she laughed at Jean's face when she found out about it says it all. It's not like she was just a random mistress, she did it knowing Scott was married and that his wife, who she already had a beef with, would be mad about it).

You're right that it's Marvel's fault. It really doesn't make much sense to blame the characters for it, and that was what the original discussion was about.

[phoenixzero23]

I think some times fans forget these characters aren't real people. They don't have control of their actions. They are only puppets, slaves of the editors whims and sales charts. And its hard to accept that because the fans have know them for decades, the fans feel they know the character and defend everything it does. Even if it's wrong, out of character, screw other characters or simply doesn't make sense.

And marvel sure as hell doesn't help, they probably try hard to make things worse, especially with shipping.

[ChildOfTheAtom]

Maybe we can have a tournament

[Alan2099]

[Ulfhammer]

You're misusing the concept of fridging here. It's about killing a character(usually women) exactly to develop another one(usually their love interest). Scott wasn't fridged for Jean, because his death had absolutely nothing to do with her. Scott died because of the whole IvX mess, and Jean wasn't even a factor on the whole story. Jean though, the reason she was killed and stayed dead was because they wanted him to get with Emma. They made it so she died on his arms telling him to live, and then pushed for Scemma after being reborn on the future. Right after that Scemma were already together again.

But I agree with the rest of what you said, but I don't think Scott being a "moral train wreck" is exactly something bad for his character. It gives him more depth. I mean, the whole Maddie thing was really fucked up, yeah, but when it comes to everything after that, the only thing he did that made me mad was the Emma affair, but that's because I'm a Jean and Jott fan, and I still don't really hate him for it as Emma had a lot of fault on that too(A lot of Emma fans complain about the blame she gets, and, yeah, it was Scott's responsability as a husband to be faithful, but Emma took advantage of him on a vulnerable moment, and the way she laughed at Jean's face when she found out about it says it all. It's not like she was just a random mistress, she did it knowing Scott was married and that his wife, who she already had a beef with, would be mad about it).

You're right that it's Marvel's fault. It really doesn't make much sense to blame the characters for it, and that was what the original discussion was about.

I think it's pretty clear that Marvel killed Scott when they did to allow Jean to be brought back without that baggage. It's more like a reverse fridging I suppose... The concept is very similar if not the exact same thing except in this case instead of killing off one love to be replaced with another, a former lover was killed to off to avoid the emotional and thematic entanglements of that former relationship.

Otherwise I'm thinking we're agreeing mostly. I don't see Scott's slide into morally grey as an improvement for his character but that's more a matter of taste than it is one of debate.

[ChildOfTheAtom]

[Wiccan]

I think it's pretty clear that Marvel killed Scott when they did to allow Jean to be brought back without that baggage. It's more like a reverse fridging I suppose... The concept is very similar if not the exact same thing except in this case instead of killing off one love to be replaced with another, a former lover was killed to off to avoid the emotional and thematic entanglements of that former relationship.

Otherwise I'm thinking we're agreeing mostly. I don't see Scott's slide into morally grey as an improvement for his character but that's more a matter of taste than it is one of debate.

I really don't think that's the case, Scott was dead since the first issue after Secret Wars, so I imagine that was already planned by Marvel even before that as the whole IvX/DoX/Terrigen Mist situation was all editorially mandated to push the Inhumans on the expense of the X-Men. Jean's return was probably planned during Ressurxion, when they decided to stop with all of that bullshit, and/or Legacy, when they decided to bring back classic characters in general throughout the whole MU.

[Ulfhammer]

I really don't think that's the case, Scott was dead since the first issue after Secret Wars, so I imagine that was already planned by Marvel even before that as the whole IvX/DoX/Terrigen Mist situation was all editorially mandated to push the Inhumans on the expense of the X-Men. Jean's return was probably planned during Ressurxion/Legacy, when they decided to stop with all of that bullshit, and/or Legacy, when they decided to bring back classic characters in general throughout the whole MU.

He may have been dead since just after SW but Scott's death was actually revealed on Nov 23rd, 2016. JG#1 was released on May 3rd, 2017. That's about 5 months difference. I'm going to assume Marvel does some planning and told Hopeless that his engagement on JG was not opened ended. If that was the case than Marvel knew prior to May 3 of this year that Jean was coming back. The dates are starting to get too close. Are we really going with that Scott's death was a happy coincidence just 13 months prior to Jean's resurrection. Sorry, but that's a little too convenient for me to believe.

[nx01a]

It could be that Scott being dead was one of the reasons Marvel decided to revive Jean, that his death made the unintentional prospect of her return less complicated.

[Wiccan]

He may have been dead since just after SW but Scott's death was actually revealed on Nov 23rd, 2016. JG#1 was released on May 3rd, 2017. That's about 5 months difference. I'm going to assume Marvel does some planning and told Hopeless that his engagement on JG was not opened ended. If that was the case than Marvel knew prior to May 3 of this year that Jean was coming back. The dates are starting to get too close. Are we really going with that Scott's death was a happy coincidence just 13 months prior to Jean's resurrection. Sorry, but that's a little too convenient for me to believe.

No, they said since the first or second issue of Extraordinary that he was dead. His death was only shown on Nov 23, but it was already a thing a year before that. Plus I think Hopeless said Phoenix Resurrection wasn't actually planned before Jean's series.

[Starrius]

I think some times fans forget these characters aren't real people. They don't have control of their actions. They are only puppets, slaves of the editors whims and sales charts. And its hard to accept that because the fans have know them for decades, the fans feel they know the character and defend everything it does. Even if it's wrong, out of character, screw other characters or simply doesn't make sense.

And marvel sure as hell doesn't help, they probably try hard to make things worse, especially with shipping.

all of this applies to any fictional character
I see a lot of these issues with soap opera characters
some people have an unhealthy hate for certain soap opera characters

[ChildOfTheAtom]