How powerful is current Goku?

[The Arbiter]

To be fair, I don't think comic book black holes measure up that well when you look at their actual behavior vs real life physics.

Also, it's worth noting Goku was incredibly exhausted, and that attack wouldn't have even been a speed bump otherwise. Given the beatings from SSJ Vegeta I recall 18 bouncing, I don't have a huge problem with her being somewhere in the Lantern/Herald area for durability in withstanding ta singularity.

Oh, certainly they don't. That's why I fully admitted I may be "thinking too hard" lol :P

You really think 18 is herald level durable? Vegeta was outmatched for certain, but she wasn't stomping him effortlessly either.

Back before the forum reboot, there was some debate that Goku ssj2 during buu saga was superman level. Huge multi page threads. I don't want to get into another huge argument here, just fill me in, has that perception changed in my absence?

Edit: and that was exactly my point with goku. In base form with little to no power or stamina left, he could move, speak and break out. If it's a black hole it doesn't seem like a good one imo

[Dark Soul # 7]

When it comes to the ToP arena, it's been bombarded with explosive blasts from people that are at least on par with Perfect Cell and it's still mostly in one piece. Hell, it took an entire episode or two before anybody actually did any damage the thing. Certain throwdowns (the ones including UI Goku) have created larger holes in the arena, and that black heart digging was steadily digging through the arena until Goku blasted it apart.

So, yeah the arena's durability is kinda vague. But it's still pretty damn tough and the black heart digging a hole through it with its sheer gravitational mass is pretty darn impressive.

EDIT: And withstanding that gravitational force is also impressive. That's what I was getting at.

[Cody]

Super Sayain Blue which allows him a massive power upgrade, equal to Super Sayain God but with a lot more precise control over his energy.

I used to think the same, but considering SSG Goku went from being blitzed, and more or less treated like a joke by base form Kefla, to temporarily(she is like the Hulk, her power grows constantly throughout the fight as long as she is transformed)fighting evenly with a MLSSJ(Mastered Legendary Super Saiyan)Kefla before she grew more powerful, I'd say it does a whole lot more than just give him more precise control.

I mean, Android 18 was sitting inside the thing.

This means absolutely nothing. We know the cyborgs are a lot more powerful than they used to be, so this doesn't mean much.

One beam couldn't make it out but then Goku just added "MOAR POWAH" and the kamehameha broke through just fine.

Okay, this right here is just getting ridiculous. First, it was with Gokus interacting in the time skip feat. Something that was clearly based on speed, ended up with people claiming it had something to do with him just being more powerful based solely on what happened in the manga. That type of thing didn't even happen in the anime until their second fight, and even then that was different. Now it's this. That somehow it, it involved Goku "using moar powah". If something escapes a blackhole(it only dissipated after the casters were blasted away), something that even light couldn't escape, what does that usually mean dude?

It means that the beam in question would have to be moving at FTL speeds. Something that is easily believable at this point, and not just because Piccolos attack reached the moon in a second either. Super has a few nice speed feats, I mentioned one already(time skipping feat), but there was also Goku catching up to Whis after Beerus knocked him off(Whis was moving at MFTL speeds, travelling from their universe to Zamasus), a feat that is not only travel, but reactionary considering if Goku wasn't FTL; Whis would have left him light-years behind by the time Goku even realized wtf happened. Then there was the fight with Dyspo, the Speedster of the Toppa rangers whose entire shtick is that he can "hear" the movements of a persons muscles as well as Shiva could read them, allowing him to predict his opponents movements, and can amp his speed to FTL levels instantly(it was specifically mentioned that he can instantly go FTL). Yet even when he was charging at Hit to finish off, Goku had the time to transform into an SSG, and fly from his spot in the arena all the way to the spot in front of Hit just in time to catch a bursting Dyspos fist. And of course let's not forget that the entirety of the tournament of power is supposed to be only 48 minutes long in length, and yet everyone is able to fight and interact with each other in a space that feels like hours have gone by in just a minute.

So yeah, a tired out SSB Goku firing a Kamehameha that is fast and powerful enough to go right through a blackhole is quite believable.

Goku = Surfer to Thanos in sheer durability and raw power with way lower resistance to weird.
Ultra Instinct Goku = Odin if he became a martial artist in the most stereotyped fictional fashion and powerblost style of zen

Jiren = Destroyer Armor Odin with resistance to weird closer to Thanos

No. Odin is a galaxy buster at best, while an SSG Goku and Beerus damn near blew up the universe when their beam clash exploded. That is wildly beyond anything Odin can dish out. And Jiren has been noted as one who has surpassed the God of Destruction from his universe, so I don't quite understand how you have him below that dude.

I know we're simply going by power here and that not all comparisons are going to be accurate, but the way Ultra Instinct works doesn't quite match up with Odin. Ultra Instinct isn't about power but rather reaction time. As strong and as powerful as Odin is, he's not fast (he rarely ever needs to be anyway, because he's just that powerful), and likewise, Ultra Instinct by nature doesn't have nearly the firepower of Odin (that's why Goku couldn't really do much offensively to Jiren and Kefla-at-first).

It was still enough to make Jiren feel something, as well as feel the need to block. This is the same guy who blocked SSG Gokus attacks with his finger, so Goku is at least as strong as he is as an SSB, he just isn't yet as strong or stronger than he was as an SSBKKx20. Seeing as even an SSG has more raw power than Odin...I am quite comfortable in saying UT Goku has greater raw power too. I mean even a MLSSJ2(Mastered Legendary Super Saiyan 2) was hurt by his Kamehameha while base Kefla treated SSG Goku like a complete joke. So his power is still increased.

But even if Goku were at full power upon reaching UI rather than hanging on by an inch of his life and stamina, UI doesn't boost offensive power (as we know yet, at least), and SSB imo still isn't Skyfather level.

Well considering that SSG Goku has shown to have greater raw power than Odin, I Think it's safe to say that both SSB and UT is well beyond Skyfather level.



I personally only see the Gods of Destruction(or those on their level) as at least universe busters. Goku may have momentarily been on that level when he first transformed(or near), but he isn't right now until he fully masters the UT state. Jiren is absolutely on that level, as is Super Zamasu(or beyond that), and SSB Vegito. But I am uncomfortable in saying that Goku is an outright universe buster just yet. We will see by the end of the current saga, but until then? Nah. Can he dish out more than a Skyfather? Certainly, but not as much as someone like Eternity or current Galactus. Yet.

[The Arbiter]

Just to note two things:

We know that 17 is more powerful because of secret training during his days as a ranger. They explicitly state this. I don't think we have anything in regards to 18 saying she kept her training up or powered up at all. In fact in one episode she even laments that most if her time is just doing maternal parenting things and that she wished Krillin had a higher paycheck.

Second thing: Goku went blue and fired a kamehameha. That is literally him just using more power. Than the beam 18 fired earlier. The extra power clearly had the beam exceed light speed sure, but my argument of more power is not somehow incorrect either, as that was literally his solution.

[Cody]

Other than "being heavy" the z sword has literally zero feats. We have no idea if it was durable or even sharp. We also don't know if it was heavy due to mass or magic.
The fighting stage has feats of getting blown up by piccolo and others so its not exactly adamantium.

The stage was being blown away by others yes, but that isn't a feat against it, but a feat for them. Katchen was stated to be the strongest material in the universe(much harder than the stuff android 16, a pure android, is made out of for example). While this Kai Katchen is supposed to be the hardest material in the entire multiverse, including w/e the robots are made out of. Now I am not saying the stuff is as tough as Adamantium, but Wolverine would not want to be within a hundred feat of the arena right now lets just put it that way.

Edit: I meant Android 18. She is basically no more powerful than she was in the cell saga.

Everyone is vastly more powerful than what thet were back in Z.

Back before the forum reboot, there was some debate that Goku ssj2 during buu saga was superman level. Huge multi page threads. I don't want to get into another huge argument here, just fill me in, has that perception changed in my absence?

Pre-Flashpoint Supes is known on here as a moon buster at best who can react to a significant fraction of light and can't shrug off an attack from the Death Star. He is regarded as a guy who bounces off of the likes of final form Frieza(Namek). So even Namek Saga Goku in his SSJ form would be enough to beat him, SSJ2 would be overkill. Now since Rebirth Superman is a literal fusion of Post and Pre-Flashpoint Supermen, that would be another story as he would be at least in the Z SSJ2 area of overall power to be certain.

Edit: and that was exactly my point with goku. In base form with little to no power or stamina left, he could move, speak and break out. If it's a black hole it doesn't seem like a good one imo

Gokus base is enough to treat Buu Saga Gohan in his "Ultimate" state look like a complete and utter joke. Vegeta one shotted Tagoma, a guy who was on that level with one blast, and later ignored SSJ3 Gotenks punches to the face. And Goku and Vegeta are of equal power atm. Him not being able to do that in a blackhole would be disbelieving.

[Cody]

Just to note two things:

We know that 17 is more powerful because of secret training during his days as a ranger. They explicitly state this. I don't think we have anything in regards to 18 saying she kept her training up or powered up at all. In fact in one episode she even laments that most if her time is just doing maternal parenting things and that she wished Krillin had a higher paycheck.

Doesn't necessarily mean she hadn't trained, it just means she doesn't train much. I mean, heck it didn't take long for Krillin to not only get back into shape, but get stronger than he ever was before. Certainly someone who is naturally a class 100 brick would get stronger real quick with training as well.

Second thing: Goku went blue and fired a kamehameha. That is literally him just using more power. Than the beam 18 fired earlier. The extra power clearly had the beam exceed light speed sure, but my argument of more power is not somehow incorrect either, as that was literally his solution.

The more powerful they are, the faster they are. But he mostly used the transformation to help himself stand up really. If you weren't claiming it wasn't a speed feat for the beam then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I just see it happens a lot, so I assumed wrong here, sorry.

[The Arbiter]

Clearly my thinking was misplaced because of pre forum reboot debate outcomes. At least the ones I bothered reading. Thanks for clearing that up.

And yeah, Wolverine would not enjoy the ToP all that much :P

[The Arbiter]

If you weren't claiming it wasn't a speed feat for the beam then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I just see it happens a lot, so I assumed wrong here, sorry.

Nah its fine. I wasn't exactly clear.

At the end of the day, even though I initially disagreed with the "love hole" (hehehe) In that same post I STILL declared that Goku should have no trouble with a more legit singularity either.

Dudes a freak.

[Cody]

Nah its fine. I wasn't exactly clear.

I was still being a bit dickish I think. So I apologize for that .

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

If Vegeta can't do Ultra Instinct, how is he equal to Goku currently?

[The Arbiter]

If Vegeta can't do Ultra Instinct, how is he equal to Goku currently?

Well. I think strictly speaking from base power to blue, they are evenish was the point. Kkx20 and UI notwithstanding :P

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Well. I think strictly speaking from base power to blue, they are evenish was the point. Kkx20 and UI notwithstanding :P

But if one guy is packing a pistol and a shotgun and the other guy is packing a spartan laser and an energy sword, are they really equal?

[The Arbiter]

But if one guy is packing a pistol and a shotgun and the other guy is packing a spartan laser and an energy sword, are they really equal?

Ill bet u 5 bucks I could beat u up with either loadout noob ;p

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Ill bet u 5 bucks I could beat u up with either loadout noob ;p

In the immortal words of Jack Reacher, "I mean to beat you to death, and drink your blood from a boot."

[The Arbiter]

In the immortal words of Jack Reacher, "I mean to beat you to death, and drink your blood from a boot."

In the immortal words of Ogami Itto, "...."