Should Superman be an icon of the establishment?

[Zodlike]

I'd agree with just about everything you said except I'd say conservatives of any age rather than "young and liberal" mostly because conservatives, by their very nature, are more prone to accept the status quo.

To clarify: it can be taken as a given that conservatives, by and large, are indifferent to the evils of the system that benefits them most (capitalism) and are not interested in the injustice and cruelty of it unless it affects them personally. This, ironically perhaps, has become an attitude of the oppressors that even young, affluent liberals have internalized.

It follows that both wings of the same bird (conservative or liberal) are inwardly directed towards the same toxic goal: perpetuating and normalizing that oppression, maintaining the status quo of power relations in an authoritarian society of corruption that benefits only the few at the expense of the many.

The saying used to be "If you're young and not liberal, you've no heart. If you're 40 and still liberal, you've no brains." Meaning that this is a conservative (traditional) way of reproducing the capitalist ideology of total exploitation generation after generation. Questioning it is 'naive' and 'dangerous' to them. It is the same with liberals now, unfortunately.

Superman, being one of the most intelligent of all heroes, would see and know that. Surely. It would take a super-man to change it.

[JAK]

True but it makes you wonder if the whole system has been twisted into a vulture. For example, in the 1950s, there was a 95+ percent tax on the upper 2% and this still allowed them to make more than anybody else but also allowed for an economy in which a person working full time even at minimum wage could still own a house and a car, support a family and even save money to send two kids to college. The CEO of the average American company made about 25 times what an employee at the lowest paying job in the company made. By 2000, the average CEO and upper members were making about 250 times what that low level job employee was making and, by now, it's between 300 and 400 times. The whole set of laws and regulations has been changed by the upper echelon to the advantage of the upper echelon. Where would Superman even begin? He'd have to destroy the entire system and force it to rebuild. Change the laws and regulations or else.

In some ways, it has. But that's been a slow build of corruption and is just now getting to the point where people are staring to notice en masse. For many people, they don't really "get" it until it affects them directly (or someone they know/care about directly). It's part of the never-ending battle, as we're steadily learning. And in this day and age, Clark could do more than Superman could directly. But Superman could certainly have an impact.

Given the correlations between today and the 30's, I'm shocked the Superman we've had in live action hasn't been more Golden Age inspired. I honestly think that would start a whole new appreciation for Superman.

To clarify: it can be taken as a given that conservatives, by and large, are indifferent to the evils of the system that benefits them most (capitalism) and are not interested in the injustice and cruelty of it unless it affects them personally. This, ironically perhaps, has become an attitude of the oppressors that even young, affluent liberals have internalized.

It follows that both wings of the same bird (conservative or liberal) are inwardly directed towards the same toxic goal: perpetuating and normalizing that oppression, maintaining the status quo of power relations in an authoritarian society of corruption that benefits only the few at the expense of the many.

The saying used to be "If you're young and not liberal, you've no heart. If you're 40 and still liberal, you've no brains." Meaning that this is a conservative (traditional) way of reproducing the capitalist ideology of total exploitation generation after generation. Questioning it is 'naive' and 'dangerous' to them. It is the same with liberals now, unfortunately.

Superman, being one of the most intelligent of all heroes, would see and know that. Surely. It would take a super-man to change it.

There's truth in a lot of this, but I think we're seeing the start of more people shaking off the "whole hog" ideologies of liberal or conservative. Things are blending, but people are also starting to see how those in power who represent both are corrupt in the same way. Anger at all and a yearn for a "third option" or truly different way is reaching higher levels all the time. Just a matter of time before it well and truly busts out, regardless of who tries to hold it back. Somewhere in that, I think, is where Superman's ideology lives. Justice, truth and decency for all, shattering through the half-truths and falsehoods like a million pieces of glass.

IMO, of course.

[Powerboy]

In some ways, it has. But that's been a slow build of corruption and is just now getting to the point where people are staring to notice en masse. For many people, they don't really "get" it until it affects them directly (or someone they know/care about directly). It's part of the never-ending battle, as we're steadily learning. And in this day and age, Clark could do more than Superman could directly. But Superman could certainly have an impact.

Given the correlations between today and the 30's, I'm shocked the Superman we've had in live action hasn't been more Golden Age inspired. I honestly think that would start a whole new appreciation for Superman.



There's truth in a lot of this, but I think we're seeing the start of more people shaking off the "whole hog" ideologies of liberal or conservative. Things are blending, but people are also starting to see how those in power who represent both are corrupt in the same way. Anger at all and a yearn for a "third option" or truly different way is reaching higher levels all the time. Just a matter of time before it well and truly busts out, regardless of who tries to hold it back. Somewhere in that, I think, is where Superman's ideology lives. Justice, truth and decency for all, shattering through the half-truths and falsehoods like a million pieces of glass.

IMO, of course.

I think the whole last election in the U.S. was really decided because people have noticed. The problem, of course, is that they expressed their anger by voting in the side that would promise them anything and everything and has all the rhetoric but consistently does the opposite of helping the common person and the poor. Mind you, the other side did a great job of making people feel like they could care less about the common people and the poor even though their policies and attempted policies usually are far better for far more people.

I also note that you said Truth, Justice and Decency. Because the more traditional line has become more a catch-phrase of the upper echelon to maintain a status quo in their favor.

[JAK]

I think the whole last election in the U.S. was really decided because people have noticed. The problem, of course, is that they expressed their anger by voting in the side that would promise them anything and everything and has all the rhetoric but consistently does the opposite of helping the common person and the poor. Mind you, the other side did a great job of making people feel like they could care less about the common people and the poor even though their policies and attempted policies usually are far better for far more people.

Agreed on all counts. And a lot of that has to do with people seeing what's behind the curtain. What's happening now will exacerbate that further, which could end up being a good thing after some very bad things tick enough people off.

I also note that you said Truth, Justice and Decency. Because the more traditional line has become more a catch-phrase of the upper echelon to maintain a status quo in their favor.

Partially, yes. I'd give the full line as "Truth, Justice, and Decency - THAT'S the American Way." (when we don't have our head up our... well, you know lol). But the American Way definitely needs to be reclaimed as an ideal and a mindset, not a sports-like nationalistic slogan.

---

On an aside note: I'm sorry if this is getting out of bounds for board discussion - I get into the nuances of these kinds of discussions, too, so you'll all have to forgive me if I stray too far with it. The "Superman in me" is always trying to think of ways to "save/fix" everything. lol

[Powerboy]

Agreed on all counts. And a lot of that has to do with people seeing what's behind the curtain. What's happening now will exacerbate that further, which could end up being a good thing after some very bad things tick enough people off.



Partially, yes. I'd give the full line as "Truth, Justice, and Decency - THAT'S the American Way." (when we don't have our head up our... well, you know lol). But the American Way definitely needs to be reclaimed as an ideal and a mindset, not a sports-like nationalistic slogan.

---

On an aside note: I'm sorry if this is getting out of bounds for board discussion - I get into the nuances of these kinds of discussions, too, so you'll all have to forgive me if I stray too far with it. The "Superman in me" is always trying to think of ways to "save/fix" everything. lol

In fairness, I think it's impossible for a thread like this to be anything but fluff without "going there" and straight out saying what we really think in terms of current politics and political parties as well as business.

[JAK]

In fairness, I think it's impossible for a thread like this to be anything but fluff without "going there" and straight out saying what we really think in terms of current politics and political parties as well as business.

True - I just said that as a formal statement of "I don't know where the line is around here" more than anything so nobody (mod/s in particular) gets the wrong impression. The nature of text absorption leads me to err on the side of caution/over-explaining.

[Stanlos]

Is it possible for him to be characterized as having a relationship of polite cooperation/consideration withoiut being seen as a flunky? Superman should never be that and I sometimes wish things like Dark Knight and Red Son would just go away

[JAK]

Is it possible for him to be characterized as having a relationship of polite cooperation/consideration withoiut being seen as a flunky? Superman should never be that and I sometimes wish things like Dark Knight and Red Son would just go away

It's entirely possible. And done often. It was done in Deathstroke not too long ago, actually.

[Lightning Rider]

Is it possible for him to be characterized as having a relationship of polite cooperation/consideration withoiut being seen as a flunky? Superman should never be that and I sometimes wish things like Dark Knight and Red Son would just go away

I'd say that's his typical status quo.

(You've made me think of a good thread idea though)

[Adekis]

Also, the New 52 was in no way the first time he ever stood with the people or the downtrodden.

Never said otherwise, and man. What a great panel - though frankly, I like when Superman's willing to take more... aggressive action against brutal authoritative figures silencing dissent.

But of course, in the pre-Flashpoint comic referenced above, there was no violence to respond to, so it's all good. Of course, a lot of that was because Superman was there as a deterrent.

I never liked the idea of Superman renouncing his US citizenship though, as it seemed like an ineffective solution to a problem nobody had. Not like being a US citizen ever stopped him from interfering in world events before:


So it's not like renouncing that citizenship enables him to act in a way he couldn't before.

Besides, part of "the American Way" of "Truth, Justice and the American Way" is criticism of the American government. That's important to keep in mind. The reason why Red Son Superman doesn't have an equivalent to "who, disguised as... a mild mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper," is that he doesn't have independence or critique of the Soviet government baked into his DNA like the "real" Superman does for our own. There's a separation of ideal and reality that Soviet Supes doesn't have until it's too late. Plus, Superman's got leftism in him from conception, where he tended to rip Roosevelt's New Deal Ideals from the headlines and put them into the funnies. He's no socialist, but he's certainly a social democrat, at least classically, so it makes sense that a version of him who was never exposed to the Ideal of "Question Authority", and who lived in a society whose stated goals align with his own, would go to work for the state, and eventually run it himself. By contrast, DKR Supes has zero excuse.

[Robanker]

Superman's not defined by being anti-establishment but by championing the downtrodden. He fights for those who can't fight for themselves. If the establishment itself treats people like crap, he should always respond in kind, but he doesn't have a rebel complex or anything. He'll stand up to authority, if it renders itself unjust by its actions.

If that makes him anti-establishment by default, then yes, he absolutely should be, but being anti-establishment isn't the character's point, just a side effect.

Pack it up, boys and girls. Thread's done.