STAR WARS The Last Jedi *SPOILERS!*

[choptop]

And so many people are trying to deflect criticism of this film by insisting it's political. There's nothing political about the plot holes and poor writing. It's simply not well written and not well plotted.

Ya I don't really get that what political stuff do they think is in it?

[Soubhagya]

These guys are Rebels at heart, if they weren't the type to question authority they wouldn't be there at all.

Rebels against the First Order. Its not necessarily true that being 'Rebels' they would rebel against the Rebellion. If that would be the case none of the rebellions in human history would have succeeded to topple their respective rulers. Being successful requires unity and organization along with mistakes from the rulers as well as luck on their side.

Just because they are rebelling against the First Order does not imply that they would rebel against the leadership of the Rebellion. And this is the worst time to rebel too. When they are practically running for their lives. And furthermore, the number of people led by Poe to the mutiny was pretty less.

[brettc1]

Box Office mojo reports the movie has dropped 68.9% from its opening weekend.

Now that still means it made $68M but that isprobably a far bigger drop than is expected.

The movie has already paid for itself and then some, amd it will very likely still pass $1B with the China premiere still to come. But at this rate it is definitely not going to do TFA numbers.

The bloom is off the rose, it seems.

[Soubhagya]

Sorry to disagree with you. I'm actual military, and that's not how chain of command works.
EVERYTHING above YOUR paygrade and MOS is 1000000000% need to know only. PERIOD!

I'm an ATC (Air Traffic controller) Pilots, 1st and 2nd LT's answered to me on approach, take off, and runway management. I was THEIR boss. Once they touched down or took off, I was out of the loop for their actual missions, UNLESS they were providing escort for a non Specific Operation.

So no Holdo was 100% correct.

Sorry, no, I was also military, my son is military, and most of my friends are also military and it's EXACTLY how the military works.
Op orders for any mission are disseminated down through the ranks in detail, and every soldier needs to know the battle plan in case they're the only one left to implement it.
So no, Holdo was 100% incorrect and so are you.

You're both from the military. Lot of respect.

I am tending to agree with Tazirai as my limited experience suggests that leaders don't share everything. I am not from the military nor do i know any friend or family who are from that background. So, i can't say who is accurate here.

But for me it does not really matter. First, not every place would have the same style of leadership. Perhaps not every military command in history functioned like this. There might be military organizations which don't function in this manner of knowing everything. Second, even if all military forces in history functioned like this, i am not sure that the Rebellion is made of properly trained military people. I don't know the background of the Rebels but its possible that they are not that well trained in military organization as the First Order. A lot of rebellions in history were made up of less trained, even untrained people like farmers for example. Third, even if they are well trained we don't expect them to function as one perfect unit. There can be problems and errors in decision making. Fourth, from when have we come to expect military accuracy from fantasy or sci-fi films not based on real life?

I remember Aragorn leading the army to Mordor in Return of the King. They knew that Frodo needed help to reach the Mountain of Doom to destroy the ring. So, to distract Sauron's eye and the troops of Mordor they went to attack Sauron in a foolhardy manner. They had no idea when Frodo would reach the Mountain. They could have been killed. And that's what happened. They were surrounded and all of them were going to die. The destruction of the ring was what turned the battle and they survived. They were close to extinction after their spectacular victory to see their enemies retreat to Mordor and the death of Witch King of Angmar. They had practically won after an almost hopeless struggle and were squandering away their gains with the hope that Frodo managed to reach the Mountain of Doom 'in time'.

No one complains about that because in that case they won. And in TLJ the heroes lost. Had Holdo managed to save everyone, there would hardly be any complaint. Just as in sports teams. The teams which loose regularly are beset by news of problems in the dressing room. But if the team wins all squabbles and problems are forgotten. A wise saying. 'Winning solves everything.'

One can still call TLJ poorly plotted or written. That's a subjective opinion which i respect. However, i disagree with it. A film is meant to entertain and tell a good story. All these problems could be called nitpicks. They are not plot holes or something which damages the film or its plot. In fact, they improve the viewing experience.

[kane]

One persons opinion. I tend to immediately discount anyone saying the terms "Diversity" and "SJW". But without it "RUINING" some peoples idea of Star Wars. Some people were never going to like it.
SO many Right Wingers were hating this film it's funny. Not saying he is.

Maybe I missed it, but I really cannot remember him using the terms "Diversity" and "SJW" in his video. And why do you think he is a Right Winger? The guy is australian and I doubt he cares much about american politics.

He has a problem with the plot and the characterization. No politics involved.

[kane]

One can still call TLJ poorly plotted or written. That's a subjective opinion which i respect. However, i disagree with it. A film is meant to entertain and tell a good story. All these problems could be called nitpicks. They are not plot holes or something which damages the film or its plot. In fact, they improve the viewing experience.

Does the film provide any explanation how the chain of command works and who Poe answers to? Was there any authority figure between Poe and Holdo? The whole idea was so poorly executed.

This is more than a nitpick, because it makes Holdo look not like a hero but an idiot, who keeps her plan to herself for no apparent reason. She did not even tell them that she had a plan at all. I really doubt that the military works this way with only a general knowing that there is a plan at all.

And her sacrifice? Why did she not leave the ship with the others and just program the ship to jump into the star destroyer (this should not be a problem considering how advanced the AI in Star Wars is). And iof for some reason she wanted to sacrifice herself why not jump into the star destroyer from the beginning on.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Box Office mojo reports the movie has dropped 68.9% from its opening weekend.

Now that still means it made $68M but that isprobably a far bigger drop than is expected.

The movie has already paid for itself and then some, amd it will very likely still pass $1B with the China premiere still to come. But at this rate it is definitely not going to do TFA numbers.

The bloom is off the rose, it seems.

That was always a given. People turned out in droves for TFA because it was a sequel many had been waiting for. I remember talking with an a bloke while waiting in line at the midnight screening. He had brought his elderly dad out with him. Apparently, his dad had taken him to see Star Wars when it first came out. They had a tradition going for Empire and Return. So, they were determined to repeat the experience with TFA (they didn't watch the prequels until they were released on home video.) It wasn't the only case either that night. The masses had fond memories of the OT. Hence why it did big numbers.

TLJ has respectable figures. However the novelty has worn off. Something Disney ran the risk of doing by announcing there would be a Star Wars film each year from TFA onwards.

[Punisher007]

SW has never run by traditional rank/military orders. So using real world examples means very little in the context of this film. I and everyone that I saw it with came out of it saying what an incompetent Holdo was and how she got tons of people killed because she kept her plan secret from everyone for no good reason. And if Poe was such a hot-head and prone to going off half-cocked (that feels like another Rian Johnson retcon BTW), then that's even MORE reason to tell him about your plan. Or heck, just let him know that you have some kind of plan (even if you don't tell him the specifics) instead of acting like you don't have one at all.

Really this movie needed a better explanation for Holdo being so secretive. Also Leia waking up when she did and then the plan being revealed was one of the most groan-inducing cartoonish moments of the film as well.

Also Holdo's plan was stupid from the beginning since the FO people can just SEE the transports through those big freaking windows on their ships. They're that close, so Holdo's logic was flawed from the beginning.

[Punisher007]

I mean, no matter what side you come down on, you can’t hand wave away that a large part of the plot is based on the rebel ships being just out of reach (and running out of fuel) of the First Order ships.

When we know the First Order ships could just jump in and out again much closer. Or just jump closer (and they can track the rebel’s regardless, so even if them jumping out and in let the rebels get away partially, thy could then still find them).

There is no way to justify that level of plot hole. We literally see the Millennium Falcon do exactly what the First Order ships should have (jump in ridiculously close and then jump out) in this movie.

Also from now on in all of these films, you're going to be asking "well why don't they just do that again, we know that they can now." But you know that the films won't do that because they still want "traditional" space-travel/dog fights to be a thing.

It messes with a well-established part of the universe in a way that feels so, lazy and poorly-conceived and just makes things harder for writers/filmmakers moving forward (which is this movie in a nutshell imo)

[ChrisIII]

Speaking of the wingmates, I wonder what happened to the squadron from the last film? I think Poe's X-wing is one of the only ones we see apart from Luke's, and the A-wings are done with pretty quickly. I think the visual dictionary states that Pava and "Snap" were in another system or something, so I guess it's possible they'll show up in 9. (I'm guessing Henwick is probably busy with the netflix work, I'm thinking that given that he works with Abrams on practically everything we'll see Greg Grunberg around).


Regarding the command structure of the resistance, although it may not have been made too clear in TFA, they are initially sort of a watchdog group that's sort of clandestinely tied to the New Republic. It isn't really until the Republic leadership is lost that they sort of become more of an old school rebel alliance (As Luke said, "The rebellion is reborn".)

[Soubhagya]

Does the film provide any explanation how the chain of command works and who Poe answers to? Was there any authority figure between Poe and Holdo? The whole idea was so poorly executed.

This is more than a nitpick, because it makes Holdo look not like a hero but an idiot, who keeps her plan to herself for no apparent reason. She did not even tell them that she had a plan at all. I really doubt that the military works this way with only a general knowing that there is a plan at all.

It does not make her look like an idiot. It makes her look like a mole. For a while it made me think that she was secretly working for the First Order. But then all these things came together with so many surprising moments. That was the intention. To show heroes making mistakes and suffering its repercussions. Try see it in this way. Often people get to powerful positions without being perfect. They might be wonderful leaders but they can make errors. And they can make them in the most desperate situations.

Holdo made an error. But she had reasons not to tell Poe immediately. First, Holdo was meeting Poe for the first time. She knew Poe was responsible for so many losses. And he was demoted by Leia. She knew Poe was hot headed. But she did not expect him to rebel against her. The film shows that most people did not know about the mutiny. Just a small group of people most likely a few friends of Poe took control of the bridge and thus the ship. And the plan of Poe was to give Finn time to carry out the original plan.

And her sacrifice? Why did she not leave the ship with the others and just program the ship to jump into the star destroyer (this should not be a problem considering how advanced the AI in Star Wars is). And iof for some reason she wanted to sacrifice herself why not jump into the star destroyer from the beginning on.

Do we know there is an advanced AI to drive that ship automatically in absence of everybody? And she was not planning to sacrifice herself by ramming the ship in light speed. The plan was to keep it moving. And then sacrifice herself. The First Order did not have an inkling that the rebels were escaping. It was a literal last second maneuver to save the rest of the escaping rebellion ships when the First Order was killing off everyone.

[RikWriter]

You're both from the military. Lot of respect.

I am tending to agree with Tazirai as my limited experience suggests that leaders don't share everything.

What leaders don't share is who gave which orders. They don't share this because it encourages people to complain about the leader who gave the order and question the chain of command. Every order is treated as if it came both directly from the person who gave it to you and, ultimately, from the Commander In Chief. But when it comes to operational plans, every detail necessary to be done by the unit giving the order is given. If I'm ordering an Infantry platoon to occupy an enemy airfield, for instance, I'd tell every single soldier not just what his part in the plan is, but what the ultimate objective of the move is, what our intelligence is about the area, who is providing fire support---artillery, air assets, naval gunfire, mortars, etc...---who is providing logistical support and what route they're taking to get it to us, who handles EPWs (Enemy Prisoners of War), what the chain of command is all the way up to the CIC... Just about everything that has to do the operation. The only things that wouldn't be shared would be sensitive, classified intelligence data like who our sources on the ground were or if satellites or spy planes were used to get the maps we're using. When it comes to the objective everyone is fighting for, though, you have to tell everyone.

[PwrdOn]

Realism should never really be the goal in a Star Wars film, but if that is what we're going for, then you can't accurately depict any kind of resistance or rebel group without showing all of the factionalism and infighting that inevitably develops in these organizations. I mean, we all remember that skit about the People's Front of Judaea, and if you look throughout history there are countless examples of rebels, often on the brink of destruction, prioritizing internal power struggles over fighting the real enemy.

[Soubhagya]

I mean, no matter what side you come down on, you can’t hand wave away that a large part of the plot is based on the rebel ships being just out of reach (and running out of fuel) of the First Order ships.

When we know the First Order ships could just jump in and out again much closer. Or just jump closer (and they can track the rebel’s regardless, so even if them jumping out and in let the rebels get away partially, thy could then still find them).

There is no way to justify that level of plot hole. We literally see the Millennium Falcon do exactly what the First Order ships should have (jump in ridiculously close and then jump out) in this movie.

I don't get what you are saying. Jump in closely and then jump out? They were closely following the Rebel ships. Knowing that the Rebels just can't escape them by using light speed. Why do anything else? Let their fuel run out. They would either have to surrender or be destroyed when the fuel runs out. They can't escape with their ships.

[regnak]

You're both from the military. Lot of respect.

I am tending to agree with Tazirai as my limited experience suggests that leaders don't share everything. I am not from the military nor do i know any friend or family who are from that background. So, i can't say who is accurate here.

.

Tazirai is an air traffic controller. They have no need to know where the planes are going. OTOH a squadron of aircraft does need to know

1:They are traveling to coordinates x,y,z
2:Using this approach to avoid any incident with our Russian cobelligerents.
3:Going to blow up a convoy of 63 ISIS fuel trucks heading to Turkey to sell smuggled oil.

If the commander of the squadron has a heart attack the rest of the planes still need to know where to go or the mission fails.