STAR WARS The Last Jedi *SPOILERS!*

[choptop]

Besides it doesn't help that the trilogy wasn't planned.

It wasn't?

[CliffHanger2]

It wasn't?

Nah no one knew the Ep 4 would be such a success.

[choptop]

just a quick note

Luke died a virgin

I like to think Ben Skywalker is still out there somewhere.

[Tazirai]

Here's the fundamental difference.

1. The Emperor was just the Emperor. His first real full on appearance was in Jedi and his death served as the resolution to the Entire conflict because he was merely the human (inhuman) face of the Empire the heroes fought in the last two films. And here's the thing, in the context of the original films, it didn't matter how the Emperor or the Empire came to power. Unless you read the novels or watched the prequels that came out years later, the Empire just existed. There's no inherit mystery. There is an Empire that overthrew an Old Republic. That's all you needed to know and all that was important. Snoke and the First Order are meant to be viewed in the context of people having watched the prior films. So the First Order being this weird offshoot of the old Empire and this old random Sith dude that nobody seems to know aren't things you just take for a given as the setting of the film. We are led to believed the Empire and the Sith are defeated the last time we viewed this universe chronologically. Now that's not the case. That merits an explanation.

2. Luke from the time we met him was shown to have some type of impressive parentage. Owen is being over protective of him, his Aunt is talking about how he has too much of his father in him. Then still early in the film we find out that Luke's father was a great space warrior/wizard and that the main antagonist of the film killed him. Later on we learn that's a distortion of the truth in the next film. And here's the thing, again Luke's parentage was never set up as a mystery. It was just naturally impressive. We didn't even know there was any doubt about who his father was until the reveal that we were wrong the whole time. Rey's backstory is clouded in mystery from the get go and we are left wondering who her parents are.

3. Boba Fett and Phasma are kind of similar. The difference was that Boba got some actual development in the Holiday special and the comics which is where his following came from and he lasted two films and was killed off at pretty much the last place he would be able to be useful character in Star Wars lore. Phasma only really has the two films and she had poor showings there despite them getting a named actor who they heavily featured in most marketing material.

[C_Miller]

It wasn't?

It's pretty common knowledge that a lot of major story elements that we have come to accept as the gospel of Star Wars did not come about until later in the creative process. George Lucas did not originally plan on Darth Vader being Luke's father or Leia's being Luke's sister. With how he wrote the films, that's pretty clear. It's why Star Wars wasn't given an Episode number initially. He may have had a very vague idea of the direction, but it's safe to say that he didn't have copious notes from the beginning.

[Sighphi]

This is incorrect. If Poe had followed Leia's orders and withdrawn, the dreadnought would never have been able to take such a shot. The Raddus was only in danger because Poe refused to back down from the fight when ordered.

no, this is more bad writing, my man, the rebel fighters all have hyperdrives. All they needed to do is relay the coordinates to the squadrons and leave then meet up later. Because at that point they didnt know they were being tracked.

Bad writing.

And if they somehow did pull back and not gone on a bombing run, that just means the DN was going to follow them and shoot them with their huge guns later on. That im pretty sure were going to be able to go through shields cause they were huuuuuge.

[Soubhagya]

I only had a little time to respond before leaving for work this morning. Rey did something(the Jedi Mind Trick) that took Luke until ROTJ to do despite having more training and lots of time to practice on his own. She picks up force powers and skills like the silver age Amazo.

In New Hope, Luke managed to hit a target which if i correctly remember was something they were having difficulty even while using targeting computers. An awesome achievement when he was barely trained by Obi Wan on the Falcon.

We don't know how difficult it is to pull off a Jedi mind trick. Maybe Luke could do this in Empire Strikes Back too but we did not see it. He spent much of that film in Dagobah with no chance of trying to pull off a trick like that. As far as we know Rey is made exceptionally talented by the Force so that she could match the prowess of Kylo Ren.

Yes, as of now it looks like she is managing to pull of feats which she should not be able to. But then the film gives a reason for that. As Snoke mentions 'Darkness rises and light to meet it.' Kylo is full of that raw untamed power. So, Rey is really powerful to match that darkness in Kylo. I find this explanation in tune with the series till now. Luke did not train as much as Darth Vader trained in the prequels. But he still managed to match him. That's because he was made really powerful by the Force in order to match Darth Vader's darkness.

[Zuriyel]

Nah no one knew the Ep 4 would be such a success.

Oops, I should have made it more clear. I meant this sequel trilogy.
RJ.jpg

Full interview at deadline.com

[Zuriyel]

New interview with Mark Hamill regarding his opinion on TLJ-Luke

“I said to Rian, ‘Jedi’s don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective. …That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well.”

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-l...l-luke-issues/

[Soubhagya]

Obi came to him from Jedi heaven and told him to use the force, twice! He didnt do it by himself.

And that was the only thing he did, being pushed by a Master, while Rey didnt only just push back the mind probe, she countered it. she also out-force pull and ended up beating him, all by herself.

This isnt a 1 to 1 comparison. We have one event with a master pushing him vs 3 events with no one behind her.

Obi Wan appeared to tell him to use the Force. That was his role after he arrived as a Force ghost in New Hope. Its not that Luke did not have the ability. He could do it. All he needed was a prompting from Obi Wan.

Well, it seems that in this new disney SW universe anyone can use a saber since Finn was also running around stabbing people and cutting force users.

It looks like that you are not wrong here. The fight with the stormtrooper went as expected. Just because you wield a lightsaber does not make you proficient in its use. The fight with Kylo was unexpected. Finn was handily defeated by Kylo Ren but he managed one hit. That is not possible.

Luke beat Vader cause he tapped the dark side. Surely, a person with training tapping the dark side is different than a person that has no training apparently pumping herself with the light side? I mean, does she even know the difference of light and dark? She probably tapped the dark side. Which is why people need training.

The issue isnt that she is force sensitive or how much strong she is in the force, that doesnt matter at all. The issue is that she is applying the force with no guidance.

this is like Dragonball, do you know DB? Gohan is the strongest dude but he needs training to know how to put all that power to use. He doesnt end up being the strongest later on cause he stops training.

I will have to go and look at ROTJ again to see if Luke tapped into the dark side of the Force to defeat Vader. Are you sure about that? However, Rey could have tapped into the light side during the fight with Kylo. That's probable too. She was attracted for a moment or so by the Dark Side. But as i said the Force was acting through her so that she could manage to beat Kylo. She was good in using her staff and was strong and agile considering her life at Jakku. By those skills she managed to survive for a while. And after accessing the Force she managed to defeat him. It was the Force which changed the course of the battle.

I can see your point. And i can point out that Luke did not receive a lot of training before he managed to blow up the Death Star in New Hope. He only got a prompting from Obi Wan. The only training he had was that much as shown in the Falcon. With the eyes covered and the training with that flying thing. Yet he managed a hit which was accepted as impossible even by using of the targeting computers. That two meter wide target which had to be a hit by a precise shot was a wonderful feat for Luke too.

Yes they have extended the boundaries of what could be done without proper training. But its in line with the original series in my opinion.

[choptop]

Oops, I should have made it more clear. I meant this sequel trilogy.
RJ.jpg

Full interview at deadline.com

That's stupid how can they not have a basic 3 movie plan?

[Username taken]

New interview with Mark Hamill regarding his opinion on TLJ-Luke

“I said to Rian, ‘Jedi’s don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective. …That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well.”

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-l...l-luke-issues/

LOL...#notmyLukeSkywalker...

Seriously though, I kind of understand where Hamill is coming from and where a lot of folks are coming from regarding this particular story arc.

Yoda and Obi-Wan gave up on Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader but Luke never did despite the former's atrocities and the guy even taking him hand.

It seems a little....out of left field that Luke will give up on Ben Solo and run away. Luke had two other options in this scenario- confront him head on (like Obi-Wan did Anakin) or try to redeem him (like he did Darth Vader). Lucasfilm chose the "bleakest option" possible.

[Username taken]

Here's the fundamental difference.

1. The Emperor was just the Emperor. His first real full on appearance was in Jedi and his death served as the resolution to the Entire conflict because he was merely the human (inhuman) face of the Empire the heroes fought in the last two films. And here's the thing, in the context of the original films, it didn't matter how the Emperor or the Empire came to power. Unless you read the novels or watched the prequels that came out years later, the Empire just existed. There's no inherit mystery. There is an Empire that overthrew an Old Republic. That's all you needed to know and all that was important. Snoke and the First Order are meant to be viewed in the context of people having watched the prior films. So the First Order being this weird offshoot of the old Empire and this old random Sith dude that nobody seems to know aren't things you just take for a given as the setting of the film. We are led to believed the Empire and the Sith are defeated the last time we viewed this universe chronologically. Now that's not the case. That merits an explanation.

2. Luke from the time we met him was shown to have some type of impressive parentage. Owen is being over protective of him, his Aunt is talking about how he has too much of his father in him. Then still early in the film we find out that Luke's father was a great space warrior/wizard and that the main antagonist of the film killed him. Later on we learn that's a distortion of the truth in the next film. And here's the thing, again Luke's parentage was never set up as a mystery. It was just naturally impressive. We didn't even know there was any doubt about who his father was until the reveal that we were wrong the whole time. Rey's backstory is clouded in mystery from the get go and we are left wondering who her parents are.

3. Boba Fett and Phasma are kind of similar. The difference was that Boba got some actual development in the Holiday special and the comics which is where his following came from and he lasted two films and was killed off at pretty much the last place he would be able to be useful character in Star Wars lore. Phasma only really has the two films and she had poor showings there despite them getting a named actor who they heavily featured in most marketing material.

Quoted for truth.

Trying to draw a direct parallel to the original trilogy means analyzing the OT in it's totality and original context. Luke wasn't just an ordinary farm boy and ANH actually made it quite clear (Vader even mentioned that he was strong in the force). There was always something to Luke and Obi-Wan laid out his father's story (granted it was later changed) but it was right there in the movie. Same with Luke being able to use the force (Obi-Wan provided basic guidance). He didn't just pick up weapons and take out trained force users.

[AJBopp]

It's pretty common knowledge that a lot of major story elements that we have come to accept as the gospel of Star Wars did not come about until later in the creative process. George Lucas did not originally plan on Darth Vader being Luke's father or Leia's being Luke's sister. With how he wrote the films, that's pretty clear. It's why Star Wars wasn't given an Episode number initially. He may have had a very vague idea of the direction, but it's safe to say that he didn't have copious notes from the beginning.

Luke and Leia were siblings in drafts of the script going as far back as when their name was Starkiller. There's never been a draft where they weren't siblings. Darth being foreshadowed as Luke's father was telegraphed pretty clearly when Beru said Luke had to much of his father in him and Owen said that's what he was afraid of.

[AJBopp]

But doesn't explain why Anakin can appear at the end of ROTJ.

Anakin, as a product purely of the Force, could hardly not come back as a ghost